Yes, what I meant was that the White Council knew the Ring was lost, not destroyed. But everyone else except the very well-educated thought it was destroyed.

The same way no one knew there was still an heir to the throne of Gondor, really...

Got back online. Just caught up.

Thought re: Faramir. IIRC, he was, in the books, supposed to be of the Fellowship, right? Had that been the case, none of the Fellowship would have given in to the Ring (except Frodo at the end). Which has that nice fated-to-be aroma that so much of the plot depends on.

In the future, after 1 viewing of the complete EE, I will end the film after the reuntion scene in Frodo's room. The rest just irks. YIrkMV (obviously)

About that scene, Frodo thought he was dead, right? And Gandalf was laughing at that?

wrt the quiz, I am Samwise and his Insomnia, but then, I knew that.

When/if it becomes an issue for people, do you plan to have your children know the books or the movies first? It's one of those things I think about (like the proper order for watching Star Wars, only not so much now, as I don't give a ::colourful Chinese expletive:: about SW anymore)

In the books nobody knows squat about it

Well, not exactly. The hobbits were totally ignorant, but the more wordly characters had at least heard of it in a historical context.

Yeah, I realized my summation was perhaps not technically correct, but I was being glib, so I ran with it.

When/if it becomes an issue for people, do you plan to have your children know the books or the movies first?

Books. Definitely books. Not that I'll likely have children, but if I did, I'd probably read the story to them as young children, then let them watch the movies once they were a little older.

Kind of a moot point with us, I s'poze. Our daughter's been watching the DVDs with us since she was born. Of course, that was just 4 months ago, so I don't know if she's really picked up on any discrepancies between them and the books we're reading to her yet.

Kee-rist.

Woke up too early, so I went to look through the RotK stuff on my TiVo. Some talks shows -- I'd never felt the Elijah love, really, but he's a cutie. Renewed my devotion to Sir Ian -- he was the actor I knew best going in, and I'm beyond delighted that the same guy from Gods and Monsters, the first openly gay Knight is both Magneto and Gandalf.

And then ... the chills. Why can the clips still make me shiver? I got up in irritation because the Biography Extra showed Mippin at Amon Hen, and I cried. It's way too early to cry. I need to watch RotK stat.

I was trying to work out which line summed up the most of the movie to me, the bits that get me the most -- and I think, although Frodo himself doesn't ping me that much, that the line for me is "I will take the ring to Mordor ... although I do not know the way."

It's the hobbit wandering into the fray, not so much for the saving of the world, but with the recognition that something larger, something grasped by the other races is at stake. It's got more than a little of the "well, there seems to be a simple solution to this -- let's go" to it, which is so weighted down over the next few movies with the awarenesses they're not supposed to go.

They're not children. They don't need to grow up. But they do.

Faramir. IIRC, he was, in the books, supposed to be of the Fellowship, right? Had that been the case, none of the Fellowship would have given in to the Ring (except Frodo at the end).

Not sure what you mean here - Faramir was never part of the Fellowship, and Denethor was never inteneding him to go to Rivendell.

Not that I'll likely have children, but if I did, I'd probably read the story to them as young children, then let them watch the movies once they were a little older.

My first exposure to Tolkien was having my dad read me and my sister the Hobbit and LotR when we were kids.

Well, not exactly. The hobbits were totally ignorant, but the more wordly characters had at least heard of it in a historical context.

Well, Faramir correctly guesses that Isildur took a Whojiggy from Sauron when he chopped on him 3000 years ago, and correctly guesses that the Whojiggy is what ultimately caused Isildur's death, not just some random orc-arrow; so Faramir weasels out what "Isildur's Bane" means pretty easily. (With an assist from Sam's inability to shut up.) But Faramir is extra-special-smart, and also Gandalf's bitch, so he's kind of an extreme example.

But he's also evidence that, although "the Enemy had a Ring of Power 3000 years ago" was common knowledge, and "the Enemy went away to sulk 2999 years ago" was common knowledge, and "the Enemy's awfully confident all of a sudden" was common knowledge, not a lot of people put two and two together until the evidence was right in front of them.

It's funny to think what the Fellowship might have been like if Faramir had gone to the Council of Elrond instead of Boromir. For one thing, the company might not have split up at Rauros. (Or, the orcs could have killed them all!) Then again, with Boromir and Denethor reinforcing each other in Minas Tirith, we might have had a situation where the Ring is destroyed, and then there's a pitched battle over who will rule Gondor. (Sort of, come to think, exactly like the ending of The Hobbit. )

My first exposure to Tolkien was being read aloud The Hobbit. I don't know how old I was, but I remember it being a beloved rerun when my mother read it aloud to my brother when I was probably 9 or 10.

But he's also evidence that, although "the Enemy had a Ring of Power 3000 years ago" was common knowledge, and "the Enemy went away to sulk 2999 years ago" was common knowledge, and "the Enemy's awfully confident all of a sudden" was common knowledge, not a lot of people put two and two together until the evidence was right in front of them.

That's essentially what I meant by "heard of it" -- saying "The Ring of the Enemy" doesn't get a "the what of who now?" reaction, but it's known as a historical-legendary thing, rather than a relevant-today thing.

Well, Faramir got the vision first -- and more often than Boromir, but Denethor wouldn't have let Faramir go.

Also, a friend of mine went to London over the Christmas holidays and got to see the LotR exhibit. The 9 rings for mortal man? When they wore them as men, they had a red stone -- when they became wraiths -- it turned into the Eye.