I tend to think of Gibbon's Decline and Fall as the most egregiously political of her books -- even more so than Gate to Women's Country -- and take that as a template.

Is it mores so than Fresco with its noncon Republican MPREG? That's what made me say no more. I'd like to collect her YA, but I don't even want to reread her other work I'd previously enjoyed.

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Are you asking if it's my opinion that Tepper has equated Mormonism with pedophilia, or if Tepper's saying it's her opinion?

Just looking for more detail. It's a Feminist Hare-Brained Counter-Narrative I'd never heard before. (For all affectionate/exasperated values of "hare-brained".)

Hm. Well-done political/social statements. Edith Wharton seemed to make her points via parody, creating characters who never saw their own folly but enacted it for the reader's edification. I'm not a huge fan of that style -- it's alienating by definition -- but it's not necessarily anvilicious.

I suppose it's also a question of how thesis-oriented your statement wants to be. If you're trying to create a space where _____ neglected subjectivity is given the time of day, that's one kind of statement; if you're trying to prove that essentialist politics need to be beaten with a stick, that's another.

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I don't want him to tell me about his mother;

I'm sorry; I sounded as if I was attacking you, and that wasn't my intent.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't care whether Card, personally, has child-abuse issues; I'm just sick of the fact that his *books* have child-abuse issues. Which is what you were saying.

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I sounded as if I was attacking you, and that wasn't my intent.

No worry on that front. I realized I was using the term rather broadly. Glad to know we are in agreeance and consensification.

So! What other giants of SF literature can we trample under our feet this irritating Monday afternoon? Shall we do another one of those "Ollie Ollie Oxen Free I Hated This [SF] Classic And I'll Tell You Why" days?

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My issue with Card was an article he wrote regarding gay marriage.

His point was this: "There is nothing against gay marriage. There is no law against homosexuals marrying.

So long as they marry someone of the opposite sex."

Which, to me, is the height of idiocy, purposeful obtuseness and speaks to a wrong-headed arrogance and close-mindedness.

So...I enjoy the Shadow books. I will probably continue to read Card, though not with as much enthusiasm as I might've before.

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Isaac Asimov was consistently terrible at drawing female characters; this annoyed me more as I got older.

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Isaac Asimov was consistently terrible at drawing female characters

Asimov was consistently terrible at drawing characters.

In my opinion, natch.

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This is from the infamous essay "hypocrites of homosexuality"

. Laws against homosexual behavior should remain on the books, not to be indiscriminately enforced against anyone who happens to be caught violating them, but to be used when necessary to send a clear message that those who flagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society.

In so many words, Scott Card is saying that random enforcement of anti-sodomy laws is useful for keeping gay people in their place. He's trying to have his bigotry and deny it: I don't really want individual homosexuals prosecuted, but I do want them to be afraid of being prosecuted all the time.

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What other giants of SF literature can we trample under our feet this irritating Monday afternoon?

Anne Shirley's quest for puffed sleeves was a metaphor for L.M. Montgomery's quest for a giant penis.

Discuss.

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Laws against homosexual behavior should remain on the books, not to be indiscriminately enforced against anyone who happens to be caught violating them, but to be used when necessary

Pardon my ignorance, but, was there ever a law designed to be applied discriminately, that didn't get kicked in the pants by the Supreme Court? Another for the annals of Opened Yap Before Engaging Logic.

I'll agree with the broader proposal on the table, that Asimov was bad at characterization period, although I'll add the corollary that, because he attempted women so rarely, at least we didn't get that many insulting female characters from him.

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