I sounded as if I was attacking you, and that wasn't my intent.

No worry on that front. I realized I was using the term rather broadly. Glad to know we are in agreeance and consensification.

So! What other giants of SF literature can we trample under our feet this irritating Monday afternoon? Shall we do another one of those "Ollie Ollie Oxen Free I Hated This [SF] Classic And I'll Tell You Why" days?

My issue with Card was an article he wrote regarding gay marriage.

His point was this: "There is nothing against gay marriage. There is no law against homosexuals marrying.

So long as they marry someone of the opposite sex."

Which, to me, is the height of idiocy, purposeful obtuseness and speaks to a wrong-headed arrogance and close-mindedness.

So...I enjoy the Shadow books. I will probably continue to read Card, though not with as much enthusiasm as I might've before.

Isaac Asimov was consistently terrible at drawing female characters; this annoyed me more as I got older.

Isaac Asimov was consistently terrible at drawing female characters

Asimov was consistently terrible at drawing characters.

In my opinion, natch.

This is from the infamous essay "hypocrites of homosexuality"

. Laws against homosexual behavior should remain on the books, not to be indiscriminately enforced against anyone who happens to be caught violating them, but to be used when necessary to send a clear message that those who flagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society.

In so many words, Scott Card is saying that random enforcement of anti-sodomy laws is useful for keeping gay people in their place. He's trying to have his bigotry and deny it: I don't really want individual homosexuals prosecuted, but I do want them to be afraid of being prosecuted all the time.

What other giants of SF literature can we trample under our feet this irritating Monday afternoon?

Anne Shirley's quest for puffed sleeves was a metaphor for L.M. Montgomery's quest for a giant penis.

Discuss.

Laws against homosexual behavior should remain on the books, not to be indiscriminately enforced against anyone who happens to be caught violating them, but to be used when necessary

Pardon my ignorance, but, was there ever a law designed to be applied discriminately, that didn't get kicked in the pants by the Supreme Court? Another for the annals of Opened Yap Before Engaging Logic.

I'll agree with the broader proposal on the table, that Asimov was bad at characterization period, although I'll add the corollary that, because he attempted women so rarely, at least we didn't get that many insulting female characters from him.

Anne Shirley's quest for puffed sleeves was a metaphor for L.M. Montgomery's quest for a giant penis.

Discuss.

Snerk.

Pardon my ignorance, but, was there ever a law designed to be applied discriminately, that didn't get kicked in the pants by the Supreme Court?

It's an open invitation to arbitrary and capricious behavior. Which is one of THE big no-nos for government action.

I actually met Card about 20 years ago (when Ender's Game was winning every award in sight and then some) at a con or two. Can't say the experience was particularly memorable. Though at a late-night bull session, he won the "award" for Person Who Lived Furthest From His Birthplace.

I'll agree with the broader proposal on the table, that Asimov was bad at characterization period, although I'll add the corollary that, because he attempted women so rarely, at least we didn't get that many insulting female characters from him.

Yeah, Asimov wasn't so good at characterization. Or plot, for that matter. Or action. Really, he was good at ideas. Startlingly, amazingly good at ideas, and lots of them. He never met an idea he didn't turn into a story, although I think perhaps he should have, just because maybe if he'd taken a little more time, he would have done some marvelous things.

All this is, of course, repudiated by the Lije Bailey novels, which, as I recall, were actually pretty good at characterization, plot, and action. So maybe he just never really bothered TRYING.