Illyria: We cling to what is gone. Is there anything in this life but grief? Wesley: There's love. There's hope...for some. There's hope that you'll find something worthy...that your life will lead you to some joy...that after everything...you can still be surprised. Illyria: Is that enough? Is that enough to live on?

'Shells'


We're Literary 2: To Read Makes Our Speaking English Good  

There's more to life than watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer! No. Really, there is! Honestly! Here's a place for Buffistas to come and discuss what it is they're reading, their favorite authors and poets. "Geez. Crack a book sometime."


Kate P. - Jul 27, 2005 11:59:48 am PDT #8645 of 10002
That's the pain / That cuts a straight line down through the heart / We call it love

Right, that's a good point. [ edit: Hec's point about Voldemort trusting Snape more. ] But I think her main point was that Dumbledore knows Harry very well, and he knows how much Harry despises and distrusts Snape, in spite of Dumbledore's reassurances that he really is on their side. So for Dumbledore to arrange for Harry to witness what would be, to his mind, the absolute worst thing Snape could possibly do, shows a lack of foresight on Dumbledore's part, because it's all but guaranteed to send Harry round the bend and convince him that Snape is irredeemably evil. Which may all be part of the plan, as you pointed out, but also means that Snape can never really return to the Order.

On the other hand, I think that they were pretty well trapped at that point, and Dumbledore didn't have much of a choice; it was either let Harry go, and possibly get killed or blow Snape's cover (thus, quite likely, getting many more people killed), or keep him around and try to keep him from doing himself or anyone else harm. And, on the meta level, the book is all told from Harry's POV at that point, and it would muck up the momentum to suddenly switch to someone else's--and Dumbledore's death is pretty much the climax/turning point of the whole book, so Harry needed to be there so that the readers could witness it.

So. I think I disagree with her, but I'm not 100% convinced.


Kate P. - Jul 27, 2005 12:03:50 pm PDT #8646 of 10002
That's the pain / That cuts a straight line down through the heart / We call it love

cereal:

Knut, I think you're on the right track with the Pensieve, and maybe the headmaster portraits will play a part as well in convincing Harry where Snape's loyalties lie.


David J. Schwartz - Jul 27, 2005 12:04:22 pm PDT #8647 of 10002
New, fully poseable Author!Knut.

P-C, I'm not saying that it's a theory held exclusively by Snape worshippers at all. In fact I agree, after reading the arguments here, that it's a possibility. But I wouldn't be surprised if it began as an effort to reclaim Snape.


§ ita § - Jul 27, 2005 12:08:19 pm PDT #8648 of 10002
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

I want Snape to be a bad guy, honestly, but I think chapter two is the clever way of misdirecting me away from it.


Connie Neil - Jul 27, 2005 12:12:32 pm PDT #8649 of 10002
brillig

I never assumed Snape was a bad guy. I always had him pegged as a representative of "people who hate you can still be on your side, so you'd better be careful about those snap judgements." A bit of a lesson in tolerance and "it's not about you"-ness.


erikaj - Jul 27, 2005 12:15:53 pm PDT #8650 of 10002
Always Anti-fascist!

I feel differently about Snape this time. I guess without thinking I was, I took Harry's view.


§ ita § - Jul 27, 2005 12:18:00 pm PDT #8651 of 10002
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

If I'd only read the books and not the reactions to, I'd be perfectly happy with Snape being a hateful good guy. I just ... I just want people to be Jossed, I suppose.

I could be nicer.

Go away, Perkins.


Maysa - Jul 27, 2005 12:25:05 pm PDT #8652 of 10002

connie, that's always been one of the main reasons why I like Snape.

Rereading the book I kept noticing all these details about Harry and Snape's relationship. Several times someone either compares Snape to Harry, or Harry thinks about how much he's learned from the HBP, etc. In a weird way, I think Snape has sort of become another father figure for Harry (although Harry would never admit or even realize this).


Gandalfe - Jul 27, 2005 12:30:38 pm PDT #8653 of 10002
The generation that could change the world is still looking for its car keys.

Maysa - That is brilliant, because, as we all know, a father is not always a good thing (at least, not until you have more perspective than Harry has, so why should a father FIGURE be?


Connie Neil - Jul 27, 2005 12:32:38 pm PDT #8654 of 10002
brillig

I've been surprised with Harry's father being showed to be a mean-spirited bastard, more of the theme of "the good guys can be real jerks sometimes". Harry has to come to terms with that, plus his near-gutting of Draco.

I think Dumbledore wanted Harry to see Draco not wanting to kill DD as well. There was the note that Harry feels a bit of pity for Draco now, which means he's stopped automatically categorizing Draco, at least, as "bad guy, not worth caring about." Once you see the bad guys as people, it's hard to demonize them. It's all being muddled up into shades of grey, which is an amazing thing in a "kids' book". No wonder people get antsy about it, it shows life isn't neat.