Well, it's just good to know that when the chips are down and things look grim you'll feed off the girl who loves you to save your own ass!

Xander ,'Chosen'


We're Literary 2: To Read Makes Our Speaking English Good  

There's more to life than watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer! No. Really, there is! Honestly! Here's a place for Buffistas to come and discuss what it is they're reading, their favorite authors and poets. "Geez. Crack a book sometime."


Kate P. - Jul 27, 2005 11:48:28 am PDT #8638 of 10002
That's the pain / That cuts a straight line down through the heart / We call it love

I like the Snape was following Dumbledore's orders theory, though I have not yet decided if it's the one I subscribe to. I was discussing it with a coworker, and she didn't believe it, because why would Dumbledore immobilize Harry and make him watch Snape kill him? Apart from the fact that it's yet another awful, traumatic event to which Harry has borne witness, she thinks that Dumbledore must understand that if Harry saw Snape kill Dumbledore, there's no way he could ever trust Snape again. In other words, this is the most unforgivable thing that Snape could possibly do, in Harry's eyes, and Dumbledore must know that. So if it turns out that Snape is still loyal to the Order of the Phoenix after all, Harry is still never going to believe him. I still haven't made up my mind one way or another. But this same coworker insists that Sirius/Remus has no basis whatsoever in the books, so we clearly don't see eye to eye on all things HP...


Aims - Jul 27, 2005 11:48:31 am PDT #8639 of 10002
Shit's all sorts of different now.

t waves wand at HBP "Kittens"

Accico Craxy!


DavidS - Jul 27, 2005 11:50:47 am PDT #8640 of 10002
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."

Kate, as for your coworker's question: it helps that Harry doesn't trust Snape, for Snape to be more trusted by Voldemort.


David J. Schwartz - Jul 27, 2005 11:53:43 am PDT #8641 of 10002
New, fully poseable Author!Knut.

Misdirection, yes. There is lots of that. And, OK, I'll concede that there might have been some scheming going on between Dumbledore and Snape, although in part I think the theory comes from a place of Snape-worship. (Ducks.) But, nope on the second chapter. Not saying the first chapter was strong, but as Fay said, it's in keeping with the other books. The second, on the other hand, was uncharacteristically clumsy and heavy-handed misdirection, if misdirection it was. I stand by my opinion.

And I like Aimée's ending.


Aims - Jul 27, 2005 11:56:14 am PDT #8642 of 10002
Shit's all sorts of different now.

Ok, I have a Snape/Lily question:

In OotP, Harry sees his dad being a butthead and doesn't Snape, when Lily helps him, call her a "filthy mudblood" or summat?


David J. Schwartz - Jul 27, 2005 11:56:37 am PDT #8643 of 10002
New, fully poseable Author!Knut.

All white font:

I was thinking about the "Harry won't believe it no matter what" factor, and then I remembered the Pensieve.


Polter-Cow - Jul 27, 2005 11:58:47 am PDT #8644 of 10002
What else besides ramen can you scoop? YOU CAN SCOOP THIS WORLD FROM DARKNESS!

Knut, regarding your ducks, I don't worship Snape in any way, and I subscribe to that theory. It makes perfect sense, given the facts and JKR's past storytelling history.


Kate P. - Jul 27, 2005 11:59:48 am PDT #8645 of 10002
That's the pain / That cuts a straight line down through the heart / We call it love

Right, that's a good point. [ edit: Hec's point about Voldemort trusting Snape more. ] But I think her main point was that Dumbledore knows Harry very well, and he knows how much Harry despises and distrusts Snape, in spite of Dumbledore's reassurances that he really is on their side. So for Dumbledore to arrange for Harry to witness what would be, to his mind, the absolute worst thing Snape could possibly do, shows a lack of foresight on Dumbledore's part, because it's all but guaranteed to send Harry round the bend and convince him that Snape is irredeemably evil. Which may all be part of the plan, as you pointed out, but also means that Snape can never really return to the Order.

On the other hand, I think that they were pretty well trapped at that point, and Dumbledore didn't have much of a choice; it was either let Harry go, and possibly get killed or blow Snape's cover (thus, quite likely, getting many more people killed), or keep him around and try to keep him from doing himself or anyone else harm. And, on the meta level, the book is all told from Harry's POV at that point, and it would muck up the momentum to suddenly switch to someone else's--and Dumbledore's death is pretty much the climax/turning point of the whole book, so Harry needed to be there so that the readers could witness it.

So. I think I disagree with her, but I'm not 100% convinced.


Kate P. - Jul 27, 2005 12:03:50 pm PDT #8646 of 10002
That's the pain / That cuts a straight line down through the heart / We call it love

cereal:

Knut, I think you're on the right track with the Pensieve, and maybe the headmaster portraits will play a part as well in convincing Harry where Snape's loyalties lie.


David J. Schwartz - Jul 27, 2005 12:04:22 pm PDT #8647 of 10002
New, fully poseable Author!Knut.

P-C, I'm not saying that it's a theory held exclusively by Snape worshippers at all. In fact I agree, after reading the arguments here, that it's a possibility. But I wouldn't be surprised if it began as an effort to reclaim Snape.