He talks about how he always tries to create protagonists that fall into destiny rather than get born into it.

Unfortunately, all his protagonists seem to fall into the exact same destiny. (Signed, still bitter that I read NINE FRICKIN' Shannara books.)

To me that's not Mary Sueism, it's the author being annoying by preaching to me and putting the Idea above the Story. And I'm all about the Story. Get that right, and the ideas will take care of themselves. IMNSHO.

Huh. I'm much more interested in ideas than plot. This is probably why I read sci-fi, and not romance.

There's "born for destiny" vs. "has the skills handy when destiny shows up." Killashandra Ree in Anne McCaffrey's Crystal Singer series annoys me, but I'm not sure if that's just because she annoys me or because it's a "why, it's as if this job were custom-crafted for me!" I don't mind if a character can say, "Well, actually, I do know how to fix a warp engine, sir, so give me the tools and get out of my way, please."

Huh. I'm much more interested in ideas than plot. This is probably why I read sci-fi, and not romance.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. I'm talking Idea in the sense where the author has some Truth they want to convey, and they're using their novel as a vehicle to preach their Truth. I hate that, unless it's obvious 100% straight-up allegory, in which case I'm not expecting to get swept up in the characters, so I don't care as much.

And I'm a pretty wide-ranging reader. I read less sci-fi and contemporary fiction than I do fantasy or historical fiction of any genre, but that's a matter of taste rather than type of story. The best way I know to explain it is I like horses better than spaceships, at least as part of my mental furniture when I'm reading recreationally.

I don't think a Mary Sue character is necessarily a bad thing. I loved Phedre. I just thought, "Wow, she's too perfect. I want to be her! Maybe without the pain"

Another favorite character that I think is a little Mary Sue-ish is Catherine LeVander in Sharan Newman's medieval mystery series. Yes, she's beautiful, spunky, intelligent, and uncommonly well educated, but she's interesting. I like her. I think she would be a good friend. I don't want to throw her into the nearest moat.

I don't care if characters are perfect as long as they're interesting and not annoying.

I do find that SF is often home to Idea Fiction -- historically, to the detriment of its quality. That's not always nor even often the case these days, but Idea Fiction is alive and well and learning to be subtle.

(Not to say that SF is the exclusive home of Idea Fiction. Dickens's Hard Times is totally a novel of ideas, where the chief idea is, "Dont' be scientific to the detriment of being loving." Actually, as plots go, Hard Times is a little flimsy and a little convenient, but it conjoins idea and emotion and plot in the one action of Louisa Bounderby's journey in the night, back to her father's house.)

Fiction of ideas without a plot can't win me over, but I do find that a fiction of plot without any ideas behind it is rarely substantial enough to be satisfying.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. I'm talking Idea in the sense where the author has some Truth they want to convey, and they're using their novel as a vehicle to preach their Truth rather than trying to tell a compelling story.

I think the disconnect is that you view putting Idea above Story as a flaw, and I view it as a matter of taste. Don't get me wrong -- I love well-drawn characters in a compelling storyline, but that's not what I'm actively looking for when I pick up a book.

Fiction of ideas without a plot can't win me over, but I do find that a fiction of plot without any ideas behind it is rarely substantial enough to be satisfying.

This. Though if lots of things are blowing up and people are being snarky, I'll generally hang in till the end.

Don't get me wrong -- I love well-drawn characters in a compelling storyline, but that's not what I'm actively looking for when I pick up a book.

Ah. For me it is. Especially the well-drawn characters part. I can do without the compelling storyline, or I wouldn't be so enchanted by the likes Alcott and Montgomery. I like to read about people, and how they interact with other people. Which may be why I settled on writing romance for now, out of all the genres I read, because I like having that primary focus on people in community.

Fiction of ideas without a plot can't win me over, but I do find that a fiction of plot without any ideas behind it is rarely substantial enough to be satisfying.

t puts on writer hat I think my books have ideas behind them--the second one, at least, has a very strong theme about embracing risks. But I didn't sit down and say, "I'm going to tell a story about why it's important to take risks, and the perils of a certain type of risk avoidance." I sat down to tell a story about what happened to a particular character in a particular situation, and the theme evolved from the story. I've read guides to writing that say you must--MUST--determine your theme before you sit down to write, and IMO that's crazy talk, and exactly backwards compared to my storytelling process. To me, ideas are more compelling when they arise from character than the other way round. That's how I write, and how I read.

(This is sure to be hella crossposted, since I've been dealing with baby issues off and on for the last half hour.)

all his protagonists seem to fall into the exact same destiny

Yes, and Frodo would like it back.

I've read guides to writing that say you must--MUST--determine your theme before you sit down to write

I've always thought that the basic theme of any story can be "life is hard and you're got to persevere to get what you want." Which, essentially, is the theme of life itself. I'm with Susan on "themes will reveal themselves." The focus on themes seems to be some sort of attempt to convince writers that, yes, they are doing something worthwhile when a writer is feeling guilty that all they're telling is a nifty adventure that only appeals to low-brow folks. t checks brows, finds they're fairly low on the forehead Adventures are cool.