all his protagonists seem to fall into the exact same destiny

Yes, and Frodo would like it back.

I've read guides to writing that say you must--MUST--determine your theme before you sit down to write

I've always thought that the basic theme of any story can be "life is hard and you're got to persevere to get what you want." Which, essentially, is the theme of life itself. I'm with Susan on "themes will reveal themselves." The focus on themes seems to be some sort of attempt to convince writers that, yes, they are doing something worthwhile when a writer is feeling guilty that all they're telling is a nifty adventure that only appeals to low-brow folks. t checks brows, finds they're fairly low on the forehead Adventures are cool.

I've read guides to writing that say you must--MUST--determine your theme before you sit down to write,

Good god, NO. I'm with you, Susan. Story comes first, always. Generally I discover through the writing that there's a central theme or metaphor, and then I go back and beef it up a bit.

I'm at that stage in a story right now, actually. I finished the first draft of this thing (20,000 words roughly), and realized that I'd ended with the character in the same physical position that he'd been in as the story opened: on his back, with his arm thrown over his eyes. And with that I began to think about what he goes through over the course of the story, and develop a theme of growing into leadership against his will.

Theme first has never worked for me: I have a forever-unfinished story that is all theme and metaphor, without much of a plot. I can't really write that way.

Theme first has never worked for me:

BtVS, seasons 1-3, even?

Hmm. Thinking back, the literal "must write a book!" moment varies from project to project for me:

First Book: I saw that Mansfield Park adaptation from a couple years back and started picking over why it didn't work for me. At some point I said, "I know it's Austen's most challenging work for the modern reader, but if I were adapting it, I'd do things a lot differently." So I started playing with it, and next thing I knew I was pulling it apart, putting it back together, and picking up a pen. So I guess it kinda did start as an idea book, but as soon as I'd determined what sort of person the heroine should be, she took on a life of her own and seized control of the story. And the story changed a lot as a result, though you can still see the MP skeleton buried within.

Second Book: A character from my first book started out as a plot device and something of a stereotype, but as I wrote she turned into an individual. I started liking her, and I realized she'd be utterly miserable in the marriage the plot required her to make. So I had an "Aha!" moment where I decided to do her justice by writing a sequel where her husband dies in the first chapter. Then I started playing around with what might happen to her, and what combination of events would give her a happy ending, but an exciting, rocky ride to get there. So that one is more character-based.

Third Book: Often I'll read some nugget of history and think, "There's a novel for me there." In this case it was a book about women aboard Royal Navy ships, including women who disguised themselves as men for various reasons. I filed it away in my mental "interesting scenario" file and went about my business. Then I was thinking about the romance cliche of a young woman disguising herself as a boy to run away from home, and wondering how you could put a new twist on it. Without conscious volition on my part, the ideas mated, and I literally shouted "Press gang!" Fortunately I was alone in my car at that time. And somehow the instant I had the idea, a set of characters fell into place as though they'd been waiting for an author to come up with a story for them. Though no doubt they'll evolve in unexpected ways once I actually start writing them.

OK--baby woke up and is demanding food. Will return at soem point today.

BtVS, seasons 1-3, even?

We don't have any reason to believe that theme was the very first thing in the writing process for each episode.

This person is saying that you should know "This is a book about Cruel Fate" before you ever type "Chapter 1".

We don't have any reason to believe that theme was the very first thing in the writing process for each episode.

In the commentary for A New Man (which is S4, but nevermind), they pretty much say explicitly that. They didn't start from "Giles gets turned into a demon," they started from "Giles is feeling misunderstood and alone." The plot grew out of the metaphor.

Nowhere did I say that they decided on a theme before writing each adn every episode, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that the show was, generally speaking, more about themes than events.

This person is saying that you should know "This is a book about Cruel Fate" before you ever type "Chapter 1".

Okay. Why is this bad?

They didn't start from "Giles gets turned into a demon," they started from "Giles is feeling misunderstood and alone." The plot grew out of the metaphor.

True, but it also grew out of the character.

Okay. Why is this bad?

It's not necessarily bad, but it's not how a lot of people work. I think it's a bad idea to state as a rule of writing that one MUST have a theme before setting pen to paper.

Everyone writes their own way. Making rules like that scares people away from writing, if their creative process doesn't work that way.

Because it's a blanket statement about writing process; these are almost always incorrect for at least one successful writer.

I know several published writers who say that they only realize what the book is about after they finish the first draft. They say that when they try to write a book about, say, Freedom, they discover that they've actually written a book about Failure. Or whatever.

Because it's a blanket statement about writing process; these are almost always incorrect for at least one successful writer.

I didn't realize it was being presented as a blanket statement. I'm only trying to argue that it's an individual matter, and one of taste, not quality.