Susan, I think my Mary Sue alerts are on different levels than many people's as well. I adore Mary Russell in the Anderson books despite her Mary-Sueness, for example. I don't know--maybe it's a genre thing. I tend to be a lot more forgiving of a Mary Sue in a mystery or fantasy than I am in a general lit book.

In some genres, like sf/fantasy, I think you need to have characters with remarkable characteristics, especially if the character's the lead. Something extraordinary happens to them, and they have to rise to the challenge, discovering/using traits they may not have really used before (though extraordinary singing voices have fewer applications than one might think). Luke Skywalker looks like an ordinary farm boy at the beginning, but we know where he ends up.

For me, I think it's a combo of whether the character fits the setting and type of story and how much I can identify or relate to her. Though that's all after-the-fact analysis. It's not like I read along thinking, "Some people would call this character a Mary Sue, but I like her." Either it strikes me that way and I have problems with the character, or I enjoy the book and the character and am stunned by the chorus of "Mary Sue, Mary Sue."

Given that I often enjoy other people's Mary Sues, I've worried a bit that people might find Mary Sues in my own work. But I've decided that all I can really do is write the kind of stories I want to write and wish were already being written, and hope they find an audience.

I have an extremely sensitive Mary-Sue-o-meter. Enough so that I have to weigh in my mind -- is it Mary Sueism for the author to use her protagonist as a thesis? (That is, if the character exists in service to the author's idea, rather than the author's simple fantasy, is that Mary Sue?) This is one reason why I prefer the term not to carry an inherent value-judgement.

(An example of the author's idea character would be the protagonist of Parable of the Sower, where the woman isn't perfect, but is the main vessel of expression of what the author is trying to say. So, she has Authority despite not being remarkable, because the author speaks through her.)

Luke Skywalker looks like an ordinary farm boy at the beginning, but we know where he ends up.

Well, he looks kind of like a petulant brat at the beginning. And, I always would have liked the story better if he'd been some random kid, who randomly got caught up in an adventure, and was lucky enough and skilled enough not to get himself killed. I do get tired of every protagonist turning out to be Born For Destiny.

So much so, that when ongoing characters suddenly develop Destinies or Amazing Powers or The Viewpoint of Righteousness, I have been known to call it Luke Skywalker Syndrome.

Nutty, you know, that's one of the things that Terry Brooks writes about in his book on writing (which, I have to admit, I thought was better written than his actual books). He talks about how he always tries to create protagonists that fall into destiny rather than get born into it. For the most part, I've been trying to follow the same format in my own work, although my genre does rather naturally lend itself to "amazing powers" etc.

It's not like I read along thinking, "Some people would call this character a Mary Sue, but I like her." Either it strikes me that way and I have problems with the character, or I enjoy the book and the character and am stunned by the chorus of "Mary Sue, Mary Sue."

Valid point, Susan. I am the same way.

Given that I often enjoy other people's Mary Sues, I've worried a bit that people might find Mary Sues in my own work. But I've decided that all I can really do is write the kind of stories I want to write and wish were already being written, and hope they find an audience.

This this this.

is it Mary Sueism for the author to use her protagonist as a thesis?

Heh. To me that's not Mary Sueism, it's the author being annoying by preaching to me and putting the Idea above the Story. And I'm all about the Story. Get that right, and the ideas will take care of themselves. IMNSHO.

I can enjoy Born For Destiny in moderation, but I wouldn't want it to be part of every book I read, and I like slightly skewed takes on it when I can find them. Which may explain the Phedre thing--by not being the usual fantasy Long-Lost Heir or Great Mage, she was a skewed enough take on the Born For Destiny to work for me, but obviously not for everyone.

He talks about how he always tries to create protagonists that fall into destiny rather than get born into it.

Unfortunately, all his protagonists seem to fall into the exact same destiny. (Signed, still bitter that I read NINE FRICKIN' Shannara books.)

To me that's not Mary Sueism, it's the author being annoying by preaching to me and putting the Idea above the Story. And I'm all about the Story. Get that right, and the ideas will take care of themselves. IMNSHO.

Huh. I'm much more interested in ideas than plot. This is probably why I read sci-fi, and not romance.

There's "born for destiny" vs. "has the skills handy when destiny shows up." Killashandra Ree in Anne McCaffrey's Crystal Singer series annoys me, but I'm not sure if that's just because she annoys me or because it's a "why, it's as if this job were custom-crafted for me!" I don't mind if a character can say, "Well, actually, I do know how to fix a warp engine, sir, so give me the tools and get out of my way, please."

Huh. I'm much more interested in ideas than plot. This is probably why I read sci-fi, and not romance.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. I'm talking Idea in the sense where the author has some Truth they want to convey, and they're using their novel as a vehicle to preach their Truth. I hate that, unless it's obvious 100% straight-up allegory, in which case I'm not expecting to get swept up in the characters, so I don't care as much.

And I'm a pretty wide-ranging reader. I read less sci-fi and contemporary fiction than I do fantasy or historical fiction of any genre, but that's a matter of taste rather than type of story. The best way I know to explain it is I like horses better than spaceships, at least as part of my mental furniture when I'm reading recreationally.

I don't think a Mary Sue character is necessarily a bad thing. I loved Phedre. I just thought, "Wow, she's too perfect. I want to be her! Maybe without the pain"

Another favorite character that I think is a little Mary Sue-ish is Catherine LeVander in Sharan Newman's medieval mystery series. Yes, she's beautiful, spunky, intelligent, and uncommonly well educated, but she's interesting. I like her. I think she would be a good friend. I don't want to throw her into the nearest moat.

I don't care if characters are perfect as long as they're interesting and not annoying.