Andrew jet-packing into the roof was one of my biggest BtVS laughs ever. Also, Buffy effectively threatening them by snatching up their Boba Fett figure.

Andrew jet-packing into the roof was one of my biggest BtVS laughs ever.

Totally. That's just a classic gag. Never fails.

I also love "We're your nemesis..es."

Also, Buffy effectively threatening them by snatching up their Boba Fett figure.

Wasn't that Spike threatening Mister Fett?

Yes, that was Spike. . . in "Smashed", an episode that I remember very well.

Yes, that was Spike. . . in "Smashed", an episode that I remember very well.

Many of us remember the last few minutes very well...

I mean, train wreck or no train wreck, I'm human, and that was pretty freakin' hot.

Once, when I was trying to rewind the end of Smashed for rewatching purposes, I accidently hit record, so now there are a few seconds of WWF wrestling mixed in with the bringing down the house sex.

Also, I have to of course chime in with my agreement with Susan about the Spike redemption. I also really think there was a time when they were unclear about him AND season 5 being the first season I watched AND me being a sucker for redemption through love or will I completely though Spike would grow a soul. Or, since they introduced Warren, a BAD being with a soul-- they could show a a GOOD being without a soul.

Whatever. I was wrong.

Although I really, really wish Spike's story had ended with Chosen, because at that point I did think he was redeemed. He made his choice to stay not at all for Buffy's love. And I think in that once second when she said it, Buffy did love him. Not before and not after, but for that second. And I liked that ending and found it satisfying.

On the whole issue of soulessness and evil demons, I have a fanwank. It can only be a fanwank, because Joss made it clear both in interviews and in the way both series handled the issue that souls and soulessness are purely a plot device in the Buffyverse/Angelverse. But because I don't consider it a minor issue like Jeffries tube layouts in the Trekverse , I need a fanwank.

Ok here is how I see it. Demons on this plane are mixture of pure demon and human. Even a lot of the demons we think are just travelers from other dimensions are part human. Pure demons for the most part don't visit this plane. (There are very rare exceptions.) One example is Pyleans ; the fact that they have humans on their plane and can reproduce with humans indicates a part-human nature.

Demons have a tendency towards evil but can choose good. Vampires are an exception , and (as we saw in season one of Angel) are the most despised of demonic types. Why are they so despired? Well it is canon that they have more human in them than other demons. But I can see on other point. It looks like with most demons, the demon side is an inteligent creature with free will. They are a blend of humans with free-will and demon with free will.

Howver in the Pylea epsiode, it looked the demon that animates a vampire is pretty much an animal - no human level of sentience. Blood beasts seem to pretty much operate on pure instinct and habit. So a human corpses animated by a blood beast gets all it's intelligence from the corpse of the human. But it's drives and impulses are pure animal demon. So a vampire without a soul has no choice but to see humans as prey. It may be restrained by circumstances from killing people, but it is never able to stop wanting to, or see any reason why it should not other than very strong practical objections. Only a human soul can let a vampire fight those impulses - and it is very rare that a souless vampire can even want to . In the Harmony episode where Harmony tried to give up evil - it looked like she sincerely did try at one point. She just was unable to stick to it when a serious temptation was offered. Of course even living Harmony was not the strongest willed or brightest creature in the world. But I don't think even razor sharp intelligence and a will of iron could let a vampire overcome the tendency towards evil without a soul It might temporarily give it up for practical reasons - but when the reasons go so does the restraint..

Most other demons get a choice. Which just goes to show that being a vampire really sucks...

The grey area of demons goes back way before Clem, though, MM. It comes in somewhere in S4, as a device to distinguish between the Initiative (all monsters are animals and bad full stop) and the slayerettes. also to justify why they didn't stake Spike. Which didn't work.

I just think he tried like crazy to be good (before the soul) but couldn't even really comprehend it entirely, because he didn't have the raw materials necessary for doing so.

To me, it was like he was slinging good deeds about the place and some of them stuck and some of them didn’t. However because he was soulless he actually needed Buffy to tell him when something he did was real. Like when she pitches up at his crypt after he withstood the torture by Glory.

Yeah, but where did they state that in the show? Up until Joss started making his "grey area choices" re: demons and vampires, there was only "Look! A demon! It's evil! Kill it!" "AARRGGHHH!! *kill* *maim*"

First example I can remember of greyish demons was the demon that showed up during a Buffy Faith patrol with the Books of Ascension. Also they kinda started blurring the line with Williethe snitch’s bar, an Buffy going in there and not staking everything that moved.

I do think the writers wanted to make a distinction, that the kind of magic Rack offered was a shortcut (Just like drugs!). And that particular shortcut had bigger and darker consequences, unlike the "earned" magic which Willow had practiced before and which she would reclaim by "Chosen." But I don't think they made that distinction very well at all.

I can see this.

Howver in the Pylea epsiode, it looked the demon that animates a vampire is pretty much an animal - no human level of sentience. Blood beasts seem to pretty much operate on pure instinct and habit. So a human corpses animated by a blood beast gets all it's intelligence from the corpse of the human. But it's drives and impulses are pure animal demon.

I’ve been shouting this from the rooftops since the Pylea episodes, Or, you know, occasionally typing up a post about it.

Which just goes to show that being a vampire really sucks...

That's a very shaggy dog there, Gar.

Seriously though, that's a very good fan wank. And it's cannon that demons don't have any use for vamps, and vice-versa.