I don't see how saying Giles is a good person who has done some bad things, and Spike (pre-soul) was an evil creature who did good things is subjective. Isn't it canon? I can see where you wish it had gone another way, but doesn't canon bear out (particularly the rape attempt) that it didn't go that way? Perhaps I'm missing what's subjective. Sounds like I upset you connie. I didn't mean to, and am sorry if I did. I just think he tried like crazy to be good (before the soul) but couldn't even really comprehend it entirely, because he didn't have the raw materials necessary for doing so.

But, more seriously, I've seen a couple of arguments where I now have sort of an idea as to *why* redemption sans external forces was so very important to a certain breed of Spike fan, and while I think I see where they're coming from, and am far more sympathetic to it than I would have been a year or two ago, it is still an alien concept to me.

Well, speaking as one of them, one of the central tenets of my worldview is that we don't live in a deterministic universe. We can't control everything, but we're moral agents with meaningful choices entirely under our control. I liked where I thought Spike's story was going in early S6 because it played so nicely into that part of my worldview. Of course, the fact Spike chose a soul rather than having one thrust upon him still works in that framework, but I'd still kinda like to see how the story I expected would've played out. Which is what fanfic's for, I suppose.

(And no, I'm not confusing the fictional and real world here, just saying that I tend to enjoy fiction that illustrates the most important parts of my actual worldview/philosophy/theology.)

My take with Harmony is that she's so incompetent at evil, that being neutral is generally the easy way out for her .

That was whitefonted for possable spoiler for current Angel.

ETA: Slumbernut!

It was important for Joss - particularly in the early years - to make the vampires Evil Without Qualification. He wanted this for two reasons: (1) so people would be sympathetic with the young girl who was going around murdering vampires; (2) to distinguish from the Anne Rice canon of superduper romantic hero Byronic vampires.

But Joss could not resist the allure of Byronic vampires (if you're thinking about Steve Austin now, you've taken a wrong turn) and that wound up muddling his cosmogony. On the plus side, more complex moral choices. On the downside, mixed messages on the soul-having issue. Joss famously resisted nailing down the canon for fear of limiting his storytelling choices, but I do think the waffling about souls wound up being a detriment rather than a plus.

Ultimately, Joss stuck to plan A: No Soul, No Damn Good. Spike cannot be redeemed nor act selflessly without a soul. But Joss didn't make that explicit until after he'd wrapped Spike in all kinds of saintly suffering that made folks confuzzled.

I'm with Cindy in that the way I thought of it was that no matter what he was trying to do, he just didn't have the raw materials that he needed.

As far as Harmony is concerned s I wouldn't trust her either. Right now she's doing what is beneficial to her, but what if tomorrow it turns out that staking Angel or turning Wesley is more beneficial to her for some reason? I'm sure she'd go for it. I have no faith in her doing good because she actually has changed somehow. She's a soulless vampire doing what she needs to do to fit in with her current situation and not be staked by Angel while she's there.

I think that needs to be white-fonted, yes? And I thought that in the universe, there is a difference between your various demons and vampires. Vampires, without souls, eat people and enjoy it. Some demons are a threat, some aren't.

Some demons are a threat, some aren't.

Yeah, but where did they state that in the show? Up until Joss started making his "grey area choices" re: demons and vampires, there was only "Look! A demon! It's evil! Kill it!" "AARRGGHHH!! *kill* *maim*"

There wasn't any "Look! A demon! Friend or foe?" "Friend. I have brought you demonic yet nummy Hostess-like treats and demonic lite beer." "You may pass."

And since they never faced the issue, never had any demon saying to Buffy "Ow, dammit! That was my eye! Can't a dude hit the 7-11 without somebody exercising their 'destiny' all over them? Huh? Damn, girl" it was just One Day There Was Clem and He Had Fritos and Buffy Saw the Fritos and Saw That They Were Good. And Thus Clem Was Spared A Smackdown and Beheading.

Which is confusing.

just think he tried like crazy to be good (before the soul) but couldn't even really comprehend it entirely, because he didn't have the raw materials necessary for doing so.

X-posting with OtherKate, I think this was the whole point of Spike's journey in season 6. And Hec is right in that this point was nailed down after it had become confusing.

[ETA] As for demons, I think Angel's "That Old Gang of Mine" pretty much blurred the line for demons - good or evil? - that either show really dealt with, although the reaction in Buffy is much more "slice first, ask questions later" than on Angel. I think that the shows usually solve the problem by having the clearly evil demons attacking our heroes right from the start, so as to remove the ambiguity.

-t, I think your interpretation - that she was being recharged by Rak - was the intended interpretation; unfortunately, I don't think that came through for a lot of people (myself definitely included). At the time, I was pretty lost by the ceiling-floating scenes.

Part of why that interpretation falls apart for me (um, not your interp, -t, but their attempt to portray it, if you're right) is the way the magic crack affects her. It's totally different from their portrayal of magicked-up Willow. Willow's involvement with magic had progressed over the years; her reliance on it certainly seemed to grow. But what she got off on was never the actual magic -- it was the effects of that magic. Willow was hung up on how easy magic made things for her, not on how the magic made her feel inside. So suddenly she's floating on the ceiling and acting all woodstock-doped-up-flower-child and it's all about the feeling, and we're being asked to believe that the change is just a matter of degree, not a whole new phenomena.

And what still bugs is that the end of season Willow did behave in a way that stemmed from the years of development and change we'd seen her go through. So my frustration is two-fold. Aside from hating it while it was going on, the whole magic-crack arc made me so tired of Willow and tired especially of the Willow-can't-handle-magic storyline that Dark Willow never really resonated with me the way it could have.

It seemed like in "Wrecked" (and afterwards) we were instantly being bludgeoned with two anvils - Willow has a bad, bad addiction to magic, and Buffy has a bad, bad addiction to sex.

Since I've tried so hard to block out the entire Actual Car Crash period, I'd completely forgotten that the same episode also derailed what (I think) was a fascinating, compelling period in the B/S arc. Because I'm totally on board with Jenny when she says:

I didn't think it was a romantic relationship. I didn't think Buffy was a bitch for treating Spike like a pariah; I don't think Spike was a bastard taking advantage of Buffy's depression. I thought they were both awful for treating themselves like that. It rang true to me.

But past Wrecked, they seemed to lose the thread on that one as well. Suddenly the anvils were clanging all over the place.

But what she got off on was never the actual magic -- it was the effects of that magic. Willow was hung up on how easy magic made things for her, not on how the magic made her feel inside. So suddenly she's floating on the ceiling and acting all woodstock-doped-up-flower-child and it's all about the feeling, and we're being asked to believe that the change is just a matter of degree, not a whole new phenomena.

Yeah that too. Willow's whole involvement was what magic enabled her to do. What is did to her was not so much fun - headaches, nose-bleeds, vomiting snakes - At most "You get used to it."

~t, The writeres may have been going for "Willow being recharged" but I never saw it as convincing. In the past, Willow has managed industrial grade magic (teleporting Hellgods, setting up a barrier that kept out the Knights Who Say Key for several hours, even with Heckle and Jeckle tring to tear it down) without running dry. Now Amy introduces to her Rack "I know this guy ... and he knows spells that last for days. And the burnout factor is like, nothing."
And within a day, even though Willow has cast no major spells, she goes back to the rack-house.
That's not recharging "magic use as addiction" metaphor; It's an actual magic is drugs car crash.