As early as Bargaining, Spike was reveling in the violence (as an observer) of the biker demons. He was telling Dawn he'd drink from her brain stem. He wasn't trying to help Buffy regain her own life. He was telling her she was dark, like him. He was playing poker with demons, for kittens. He was offering to steal. His reaction to Buffy in OM,WF was essentially 'first I'll kill her, then I'll save her.'

Except for the encouraging Buffy to go dark, I don't see any of those things as being indicative of anything other than a man with a blunt way of expressing himself and a world view of "me and mine first". Yeah, he's not Lifetime Movie Hero material, but not balls-out evil either.

Yeah, I think they leaned too hard on the assumption that people would stick with "soulless vampire = evil."

In retrospect, I think a lot of the appeal to various people *of* Spike was the whole notion of goodness by choice, rather than by something innate (soul). Which, y'know, big picture and all, kind of completely undermines the moral framework of the fictional universe.

Except for the encouraging Buffy to go dark, I don't see any of those things as being indicative of anything other than a man with a blunt way of expressing himself and a world view of "me and mine first". Yeah, he's not Lifetime Movie Hero material, but not balls-out evil either.

Without his history as context, I'm with you connie. But see, we did have his history, and nothing showed us he "got good." Heck, if nothing else (and I can't believe I didn't mention it), we have Smashed. The minute his suspected his chip was out, he tried to feed on someone. The point is, we had no reason to think he was in redemptionville. Better than active-serial-killer isn't the equivalent of good, particularly in this 'verse.

eta...

Which, y'know, big picture and all, kind of completely undermines the moral framework of the fictional universe.

Heh, funny semi-xpost

that certainly doesn't tell me he's good, or grown beyond the evil

But it doesn't tell me he's bad at all. If he believes her darkness to be true, what evil is there in urging her to come to terms with it? Enjoying who you are is consistent for him.

As for the eggs, I believe that (my) Spike would know what they were, and that putting them in the next room was likely to get his ass killed in short order. Kind of like not taking noon walks on sunny days.

In retrospect, I think a lot of the appeal to various people *of* Spike was the whole notion of goodness by choice, rather than by something innate (soul).

Oh, absolutely! The idea of vampires as Purely Evil never bothered me personally, but I know a lot of people found the concept really upsetting and unattractive and quasi-racist.

But it doesn't tell me he's bad at all. If he believes her darkness to be true, what evil is there in urging her to come to terms with it? Enjoying who you are is consistent for him.

But we'd had since season 2, showing us just how bad he could be. We already knew he was bad. We saw him fall in love with a good person. We saw him try to approximate good from time to time, but it was usually made kind of clear that he wasn't capable of getting it. I think Spike wanted to be good, and even believed he was being made good by his love for the slayer.

The darkness he thought she belonged in—thought she should come to terms with—was the kind of darkness where you don't worry about killing one innocent because you've saved a lot of others. "Good" knows that isn't so. I saw his inability (and not his fault) to be good, like a neon sign, throughout season 6. I gave him mad props for trying, but it was pretty clear (to me) he couldn't.

As for the eggs, I believe that (my) Spike would know what they were, and that putting them in the next room was likely to get his ass killed in short order. Kind of like not taking noon walks on sunny days.

I'd have to watch it again. I can't remember particulars any more. Despite the fact that I didn't hate AYW, I never had the desire to rewatch it, like I did some scenes.

Oh, absolutely! The idea of vampires as Purely Evil never bothered me personally, but I know a lot of people found the concept really upsetting and unattractive and quasi-racist.

Sometimes, I think a lot of people are nutjobs.

But, more seriously, I've seen a couple of arguments where I now have sort of an idea as to *why* redemption sans external forces was so very important to a certain breed of Spike fan, and while I think I see where they're coming from, and am far more sympathetic to it than I would have been a year or two ago, it is still an alien concept to me.

The darkness he thought she belonged in?thought she should come to terms with?was the kind of darkness where you don't worry about killing one innocent because you've saved a lot of others. "Good" knows that isn't so.

Admittedly he wasn't taking her to Meetings, but if the darkness is true, and the denial is tearing her apart, anyone should encourage her to come to term with it. First step in fixing the problem is acknowledging its existence.

So that isolated act isn't one of evil.

Now, the "dark like me" part implies not-goodness. But that's a separate issue to me.

Oh, absolutely! The idea of vampires as Purely Evil never bothered me personally, but I know a lot of people found the concept really upsetting and unattractive and quasi-racist.

I can't do those discussions without the cranial ka-boom. There was some guy hanging around the Beta for awhile who claimed that Buffy was a genocidal war criminal for her rampage against vampires.

When I picked my jaw up off the floor, I asked if he was aware that vampires weren't, y'know, real.

They're monsters. Yes, played by pretty pretty (and show-breakingly overly sympathetic, in one case) people, but not human. Dead things wearing corpses as a cloak. Etc.

Given his history of evil, though, him looking after Dawn for no other reason than "a promise to a lady" definitely points to him trying to be good.