See, I thought the Joyce haunting was too physical for the FE.

I seriously think, either it was something that got dropped, or it referred to Buffy trying to get Dawn out of the way before the final battle. Why Joyce would go to such efforts for that - err. That's where it kinda falls down. I hate the idea that it was just a dropped thread, though, rather than a botched one (see pod-Giles set up as possible FE).

(I always thought it was FE Joyce myself).

The First couldn't manipulate surroundings at all, let alone trash the Summer's residence.

Did we see Joyce trash things, though? Didn't that happen offscreen with lots of wind and stuff? Or am I on monkey crack?

What Allyson said about ?Joyce? in CwDP. Also? Dawn did a spell calling on the power of "all the people that love me."

In the Buffyverse, that sort of spell trumps all. She saw real Joyce.

ted - I was joking about the stun gun. I was joking with all my answers in that post, but I don't think it came across. I actually accept your stun gun explanation.

Did we see Joyce trash things, though? Didn't that happen offscreen with lots of wind and stuff? Or am I on monkey crack?

No - you're not on monkey crack. But the FE never did anything like that in any other appearance on the show. It didn't harness the elements, etc. All it did was appeal to the evil inside humanity, and then get humans to work its will. That's not what we saw in CwDP. We saw some sort of entity/force/whatever - mess up the house and cause the appliances to go apeshit.

I think the point I'm trying to make, Scrappy (I'm not always certain what my points are) is that The First, from what we've seen, is unable to manipulate environmental things. Something sliced up Dawn, blew the windows out, created big winds.

Now, Joyce wouldn't hurt Dawn, so the slice and dice couldn't have been Joyce, but neither could it have been the First. Even the Brongers had no mystical powers. They had to hire the prison chick to kill Faith, they're hands on when it comes to killing, otherwise, they would have slit their throats from afar and saved themselves the cardio.

I think someone dropped a subplot, or maybe the thought that the First didn't have the power to manipulate environment came later. Either way, it's stoopid.

I like dangling subplots, I prefer that in an ending. This was just fucked up.

I always typo Bringers into Brongers.

I always typo Bringers into Brongers.

As an ode to the huge bong of the fuckeduppedly dropped subplots, no doubt.

My wank for the time stamp is that is was important that we, the audience, know that each of these encounters was occurring at the exact same time. It was important that we know that the FE was in only one of these locations (with Willow) and that it cannot be in multiple places at the same time. (So Maybe!Joyce was not FE, but I still don't know what the haunting was all about.)

Thus we should have realized that when the FE spent several days in the Summers house as BadSouthernAccent!Potential (not touching anyone the entire time) it could not have also been Not!Giles. But everything else was wonky, so who knew?

That's my wank, and I'm sticking to it.

I'm impressed.