I don't think of those official-release things as spoilers either (I mean I know they are spoilers *here*, but they're not spoilers as I define them).

Exactly. I figure that a)ME, generally speaking, dislikes spoilers. b)ME routinely releases actor information. c)Therefore, actor information is not spoilerage.

Besides, I've never been able to successfully predict a plot by knowing who's involved.

Cindy is very much me in this regard. Oddly enough, if I know that something horrible is going to happen to a character I love, I can actually enjoy the pain in a sort of cathartic manner. The death (or maiming) becomes an element of tragedy rather than shock.

Cindy is me, too.

Besides, I've never been able to successfully predict a plot by knowing who's involved.

Heck, sometimes I hear detailed plot points and am still surprised by the way they play out onscreen.

I am looking forward to having all seven seasons on DVD.

What I'm really looking forward to is having my dad--who is almost completely unspoiled--watch through them for the first time. From the little I've told him about the show, he's intrigued by the whole idea. It'll be fascinating to see the reactions of someone who goes into Season One not knowing that Angel is a vampire, who gets to see Becoming 1/2 for the first time, the first emergence of Ripper, Willow's forays into magic, "Hush", "Restless", "Once More With Feeling" (Dad loves musicals), Spike's rough road from villain to hero, Willow's descent into darkness, and so on. What will really be neat about this, however, is that unlike the rest of us, he'll be seeing the whole story in a much more compressed time-frame. Knowing him (and how he snarfed down the entire Sharpe series in one go), it'll take him about two months, tops, to get through the whole series. It'll be interesting to hear how he reacts to things.

I was totally spoiled for both shows this year. It made Angel much better for me (knowing where they were going, the path made sense, if that makes sense), Buffy, not as much (knowing where they were going, the path made no sense and required more logic leaps for me than Angel did.)

Of course the key is whether the writing, acting, directing are sufficiently good to allow you to suspend disbelief (because on a purely logical basis every episode of BTVS could be shredded, as Keith Topping demonstrates in his "Logic Let Me Introduce You To This Window" section of his "Slayer") and there we all have different needs.

If the fictional reality really grabs me, "making sense" stops being an issue (unless the main appeal is the "puzzle" as with your average mystery, rather than the characters). That exception aside, if I'm really pulled in I'm not observing from the outside, but from the inside-and from the inside I find Life never really makes sense (or really always does, which is the same thing).

It is very difficult to draw me into a fictional reality-in that sense my standards are quite high. But once drawn in it is very difficult to send me back outside, and in that sense I'm easy. People act of character in my life all the time (including me) so when Giles (for example) who has become "real" to me acts out of character, I don't think, "they've forgot how to write Giles" but "this is a side of Giles that is unexpected." In a way, if the characters do not sometimes act out of character, if they are not sometimes inconsistent and contradictory, that is more likely to break the reality for me. I find people ultimately inexplicable in reality, so too much understanding makes fictional characters (for me) less real.

So, for example, while I understand and even agree with those who would have enjoyed a different use of Giles this season more, because of the above, my reaction always tended towards "Giles must be freaked" rather than "that's NOT Giles." The latter is something I probably would never have considered but for the Buffistas. (And if it had turned out not to be Giles after all? Well, then I would have had a high HSQ moment.)

Again, hard to get me to suspend disbelief in the first place, but once I have, hard to get me to stop suspending it. Others are hard/easy, easy/easy, or easy/hard. No right or wrong, but I think it might explain a lot about our subjective reactions. (Or maybe not. I could be making no sense at all.)

Does anyone else feel kinda bad about the Summers house? There's not a copper pipe refit in the world that can fix that kind of damage.

Joss, for several years, to the City Council of Wherever It Is They Filmed the Summers' House: "We're sorry we made that loud explosion please let us come back and film please please please."

Mayor of Wherever: "Okay, okay, you can come back!"

Joss: "Great! Now, in this scene, all of Sunnydale is sucked into a mammoth sinkhole."

Mayor of Wherever: ". . ."

======

I just realized that Buffy was truly a gross production. Heehee.

Serial: That cryptic crossword was great. If I'm thinking of the right synonyms, 14-Down was *really* impressive. I'm still stuck on the whole talisman deal, though. I mean, I get the idea, having done many cryptics before--I just can't *find* the thing. Is it based on an outline of certain letters? Is there shading on the grid that I can't see? Both whitefont and vagueness appreciated in answering.

Of course the key is whether the writing, acting, directing are sufficiently good to allow you to suspend disbelief (because on a purely logical basis every episode of BTVS could be shredded, as Keith Topping demonstrates in his "Logic Let Me Introduce You To This Window" section of his "Slayer") and there we all have different needs.

I can suspended narrative disbelief pretty easily, but emotional disbelief is a whole 'nother thing for me. If that makes sense.

I found my ability to believe the emotions/feelings of the characters this season stretched, because they didn't seem to match what the narrative was doing, or seemed forced awkwardly into a structure that didn't suit them. (Which is a convoluted way of saying, the voices seemed off.)

But Captain Logic has never steered my tugboat, no matter how well I did in his classes or on his exams.

FWIW, I also feel like Plei about the analysis (for Buffy, I wasn't into Angel to that level (until I started reading Plei, anyhow) - and when I say "that" level, my lower-level was still take notes-post profusely - etc.).

Also? I started watching BtVS in season 3. So I've always been spoiled in a sense. Yeah, I knew Buffy and Angel had sex and he lost his soul and she killed him (I didn't know he was resouled when she killed him until I first watched Becoming - which broke me). I knew Oz was a werewolf, Angelus killed Jenny, etc., etc., so spoilage was habit from the outset, because of my being late to the party. I've spoiled less often and less intentionally for Angel, and in part, I think that's because I've been there from the beginning.

Does anyone else feel kinda bad about the Summers house? There's not a copper pipe refit in the world that can fix that kind of damage.

You know, if Buffy & Spike had had The Sex, the house probably would have been trashed before the town did the big sucky thing.

At the very least, in my imagination, the basement would have been flooded, copper or no, the pipes just wouldn't stand up to the strain.

IJS

I can suspended narrative disbelief pretty easily, but emotional disbelief is a whole 'nother thing for me. If that makes sense.

That makes the most sense for me. This is a story about vampires, demons, super-strong 90lb women, and witches who can flay people. So I'm not put off when "the monks made her from me" or "this orb does such and such". All that high concept stuff, to me, (even the stuff that is done exceptionally well) is just device to tell me that when you sleep with a guy before you're both sure and ready, and he ends up monstrous, you shouldn't be that surprised; and that no matter how unfair it is, people like Joyce and Tara die every day.