Re spoilers and Joss: I've thought about this a lot, understandably, being his arch nemesisises in the whole spoiler issue. I think he's kind of missing the point in his ideas about spoilerphiles, and Scrappy's point is closer. It's not so much that people find out what happens; and it's not even fully that people rush to judgment. It's that the Internet creates a culture where people become invested in ideas about characters and stories, and they are reluctant to change their minds. When you're around a group of people who reinforce your ideas about the story on a daily basis, and you create a community based on those ideas, then it's going to be difficult to move on from those ideas.

And that, I think, is what really bothers Joss. Because he is all about storytelling and conflict and change. His willingness to change the show's premises and characters is something I admire (and if I have to read about how revolutionary the Alias finale was one more time, I might take a baseball bat to my computer screen--it's not nearly as inventive as what Joss has done over 7 years). But the Internet promotes ideological inertia, not change or growth.

Just to reiterate, my order of seasons is 3,4,2,7,6,1,5. However, those last 4 are pretty close, although 5 is definitely the nadir IMHO.

As for spoilers, I've always pretty much been a medium hardcore 'ho. I don't attempt to seek out the scripts or the wildfeeds, but plot points don't bother me. On the whole issue, I agree with scrappy in that I think what ME objects to is casting aspersions on something on the basis of spoilers rather than the thing itself.

That said, I also understand using spoilers as a way to steel oneself against something you aren't going to enjoy.

All in all, my unspoiled experience was more fun, and seriously folks, a lot less effort.

Really? The whole reason I got spoiled in the first pace was because it seemed very unnatural to me not to read articles and reviews and whatever else I could get my hands on about the show as soon as they came out.

I dunno, I'm strange -- I won't read wildfeeds or in-depth discussions of what's gonna happen (I checked out of the Spoilers thread for a few weeks before Home, and almost a week before Chosen). But knowing Eliza Dushku will be in five episodes, or Anthony Stewart Head is leaving the show, or whatever TV Guide tells me? Not so important to my viewing experience. And I like knowing who dies so I don't freak out -- I made a friend spoil me for Angel's death at the intermission in Rent. I can't imagine how I would have taken Spike's death if I hadn't known about it.

Of course, one of my first Buffista posts was asking if Joyce was really dead, or just mostly dead, and if the actress was leaving the show, and when I asked that someone sent me to spoilers. So it's really your fault I'm all dirty.

Oh, and I can't rank the seasons, because tend to think in terms of episodes, not arcs. At a guess, maybe 2, 3, 6, 5, 4, 7, 1.

My ranking of seasons is probably 5, 2, 1, 4, 6, 3, 7. Though damn, the first third of 6 is probably in the top 2. In fact, start with Blood Ties and go through Tabula Rasa, and that's probably the finest set of episodes in the series.

The moment where Anya steeled herself was much like where Merry and Pippin leapt out to distract the Uruk Hai from Frodo -- it made me tear up because they're not supposed to fight, dammit! But they do get it, now, something bigger than self-preservation -- world preservation, and even though they're the least well equipped, pitifully so, they do it.

Because you can be a hero without the power.

The "stupid" thing Anya did? Was go against her every self-description, and fight for people she didn't even love. For people she didn't even know. Yeah, by her books, it was stupid. A marvellous stupid thing.

Damn it, ita, you're making me tear up.

But knowing Eliza Dushku will be in five episodes, or Anthony Stewart Head is leaving the show, or whatever TV Guide tells me? Not so important to my viewing experience.

I don't think ME considers most of that kind of stuff to be spoilers, because Joss will tell in interviews, "We're going to have Tony in 10 episodes rather than 6, in season 7; Eliza's coming back," etc. I don't think of those official-release things as spoilers either (I mean I know they are spoilers *here*, but they're not spoilers as I define them).

cereal to complete thought:

I have to know if someone I love is going to die. It will ruin the show for me if I don't know. If Xander had died in the finale (or Giles) and I hadn't been prepared, it would have broken me in the way Joss desires when he kills a beloved character, but it also would have turned me off the show. I was very glad I got spoiled on Tara's death. That would have turned me off the show, had I not known. I knew so far ahead of time though, that by the time the episode rolled around, although it still broke my heart, it didn't make me angry on the meta level.

I'm the opposite-ish, Cindy. Not knowing means that I can enter into the show and not be obsessing over how. Knowing that Tara was going to die in advance made the actual event... I dunno. Flat. I kept expecting it to happen. Sudden is how I want to go and so the suddenness of Anya was really moving for me.

But obviously YTakeonDeathMV.

BTW, I've just realised how Moorcockian the ending is. I've mentioned the link before - I swear Joss read all the Eternal Champion books as a boy - but there's a Moorcock essay about how the perfect hero is one who gives away his power - who shares it out, so everyone in the world has it. It's his argument of how you can have a Hero who isn't fascistic. Plus, of course Buffy and Angel are instances of the Champion, and Spike is Jerry Cornelius...