Baseball girl was the BESTEST.

Except for Vi.

Damn you, wee Jon, for having Dibs. VI SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE LESBIAN!!! CAN YOU IMAGINE HOT VI ON WILL ACTION????

(weeps)

From the NYT article:

although her wardrobe remained as spiffy as ever, her soul was battered.

every time she staked a villain, somewhere in the TV ether you could hear all of the cowboys' long-dead girlfriends cheering.

Kinda sums it up .... ay?

I'm willing to try to see things your way, and yet you're not even a tiny bit willing to try to see things my way.

Sean, this is all getting too meta for me. I'm still here arguing, right? If I wasn't a tiny bit willing to see things your way, I wouldn't be posting about it.

Buffy knows full well she's using when she asks Spike (post-cookie dough) if she can stay. When he says no, she says she understands. He then states that he has no pride and she can stay because he "[doesn't] know what [he] would do if she walked up those stairs."

People use each other all the time, with the consent of the other. It's called co-dependency.

He needed to be close to her in a supportive healthy way to come to terms with the AR for himself, for his own closure.

I could buy that. Once. Maybe in Touched. But to continue to snuggle with her post-cookie dough? When she knows she's not ready for a relationship? The only way I can possibly buy this is Cindy's (I think) fanwank that the conversation between them in End of Days was Buffy's version of telling Spike that she's not ready. I'm about at a 40% acceptance level of that fanwank.

If one follows your logic to its conclusion, it is "using" to ask anyone who cares about you for ANYTHING, since you may not be able to give the exact same amount back to them.

And to follow your logic to its conclusion, then there is no using in any relationship ever. C'mon, those are word games. I'm talking about a specific situation, which is one-sided cuddling.

I don't see how Spike becomes a better person because he consents to the cuddling. It's not like he's never done stuff like this before (porch scene in FFL, alley scene in After Life, his attempt to be there for Buffy emotionally in Gone, his letting her beat him up in Dead Things). He's been gracious and generous in the past. What he does in Chosen is more of the same. And he knows he has no pride when he does it.

And did someone try to make the argument that Buffy wasn't using Spike in Season 6? I thought I read it in the 90+ messages but can't remember where. First, Buffy said twice that she was using Spike (in Dead Things and As You Were). And even after Buffy said she was breaking up with Spike because she was using him, he still wanted to be used. Should she have continued to sleep with him? If she had, I'm sure Spike would have been blamed for that, not complimented on his generosity in letting Buffy use him so that she would feel alive and not go out and kill herself.

I don't mind that Buffy has used Spike in the past, or that Spike has used her. I just wish that she didn't do it in the final episode. That's not how I wanted to remember her.

But that was MondayWendy. WednesdayWendy believes that Buffy loves Spike.

I really think what makes this so special - it ended in a way that was satisfying, and even though I'm glad the show is over (because everybody involved was obviously done. with. it.), as someone said up thread, I want to know what happens next!

Seriously, I can't take that little baseball girl. I was that little girl at the plate.

Oh, man. Me too. That's when I got all teary.

But to continue to snuggle with her post-cookie dough? When she knows she's not ready for a relationship?

But she told him she didn't know if it meant anything. He knew the deal, and that they might not live through the next day. I guess for me (and it seems sean) using means a certain level of deceit. For you, Wenda, it can mean codependency. I don't feel that Buffy was leading Spike on at this point.

Anyway. Just thinking how Buffy telling Angel to clear out was a nice turn around from all his executive decisions regarding Buffy (leaving sunnydale, time fold in IWRY, kicking her out of LA in Sanctuary, etc). And his respecting her decision was a nod to her maturity.

edited to change a that to they

And his respecting her decision was a nod to her maturity.

I've liked Angel in these past two BtVS episodes. There was a sort of joy in watching Buffy kick ass that was nice to watch, and I liked the sense he conveyed that he was there to help, but didn't neccesarily believe that she couldn't do it without him.

Plus, the A/S snipes at each other were priceless.

Seriously, I can't take that little baseball girl. I was that little girl at the plate.

Me three. But I'm telling you. Major league shortstop, that girl's gonna be. And she fights crime, and hangs out with hot baseball players. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

He knew the deal, and that that might not live through the next day.

Yep. I didn't see any using going on to begin with, since they were honest with each other, but in any case, I'd cut them a wide degree of latitude under the eve of battle exception clause. AFAIC, they didn't do anything they couldn't have coped with later had both of them survived, so they're fine.

I've liked Angel in these past two BtVS episodes.

I've liked Angel ever since his last F2F with Angelus.

Angel's whole "I did it first" moment was priceless. He actually took Spike's soul-having a lot better than I thought he would.