Zoe: Uh huh. River, honey? He's putting the hair away now. River: It'll still be there... waiting.

'Jaynestown'


Buffy 4: Grr. Arrgh.  

This is where we talk about Buffy the Vampire Slayer! No spoilers though?if you post one by accident, an admin will delete it. This thread is NO LONGER NAFDA. Please don't discuss current Angel events here.


Connie Neil - May 21, 2003 11:44:05 am PDT #1648 of 10001
brillig

As a survivor of '70s feminism, I disagree

I remember that stuff, thought it didn't happen directly to me. I have never felt unempowered. I should have qualified my statements by saying they applied to me. If those shots made people feel good, wonderful. They made me cringe.


Frankenbuddha - May 21, 2003 11:46:58 am PDT #1649 of 10001
"We are the Goon Squad and we're coming to town...Beep! Beep!" - David Bowie, "Fashion"

Too bad, too, that so many of the precious few minutes were wasted by Kennedy and Angel kissing.

And on a lighter note - where was I when Angel and Kennedy kissed? That's a plot twist I wouldn't have seen coming.

On a more serious note, I repeat what I said a few days ago: despite a mid-season drag (a common Buffy occurence, IIRC), and the Giles-weirdness (no explanation that I can see for that, sadly), I've liked this season about 4th best of all 7 seasons - dead in the middle. And even 5 (at the bottom) had some good eps, was better than just about anything else out there, etc., it just had a hella-crap main arc.


ZeusGirl - May 21, 2003 11:47:26 am PDT #1650 of 10001
"Angel and Spike, The Starsky and Hutch of the Netherworld" - Albert Einstein in his speech to the U.N. Security Council, Sept., 1955.

I have to say that I can't judge Buffy's behavior in a vacuum. Yeah, the show was metaphor, but she's still the Slayer. And the Slayer has to worry first and foremost about the saving of the world. I took from Buffy this episode a certain adult resignation to that lot in her life. She understood that no matter how much she loved people, she had to let that take a backseat to doing her job.

So, yeah, she was manipulative. That was her job. And what tore her apart for seven years was having to be manipulative while trying to love people, too. Truly an impossible task. So she gave whatever she could to those she loved, but in the end she had to do whatever was needed, including sacrificing her own happiness, in order to save the world.

The scene with Angel illustrated this perfectly. Angel and his Dawson-like neediness was just not something she could deal with and still get her job done. Sometimes you just have to tell people whatever they need to hear, otherwise you can't get done the adult things that need to be done.

She can't deal with people's insecurities over their relationship with her and still be an effective Slayer. She's just got to move them into a state where they are dealing as quickly as she can, so she can get down to the business at hand. And what I took there was, "It sucks, but these are the cards I was dealt. So I just have to play them and then go save the world."

There is no way to be sweet, make everybody happy Buffy, and, in the end, isn't that true of us all? We have to be who we are, and the people who love us should love us for who we are. And if they can't deal, we can't go through life thinking that is our problem.

And you know what, Spike goes out even more heroic because I think he was the only one who ever just loved Buffy for who she was. Warts and all.

Buffy is a user AND a good person AND a selfish hero AND a snappy accessorizer. She's a Renaissance Slayer. They were all put in an impossible situation, week after week, and that has to be hard on interpersonal relationships. Notice how no one on the show ever had a successful one during the entire seven years.


Sean K - May 21, 2003 11:47:33 am PDT #1651 of 10001
You can't leave me to my own devices; my devices are Nap and Eat. -Zenkitty

You have 3 arms?

Those are fingers. Stubby, Simpsons-esque fingers.


P.M. Marc - May 21, 2003 11:48:34 am PDT #1652 of 10001
So come, my friends, be not afraid/We are so lightly here/It is in love that we are made; In love we disappear

You have 3 arms?

No! The 3 is my right hand, and the E is my left hand!


P.M. Marc - May 21, 2003 11:49:45 am PDT #1653 of 10001
So come, my friends, be not afraid/We are so lightly here/It is in love that we are made; In love we disappear

Oh, good. Sean got it!

My ASCII art skillz are neither mad nor whack.


Typo Boy - May 21, 2003 11:50:38 am PDT #1654 of 10001
Calli: My people have a saying. A man who trusts can never be betrayed, only mistaken.Avon: Life expectancy among your people must be extremely short.

OK, the Frayverse now makes no sense at all!

Actually I think there a bunch of ways this makes the Frayverse more likely. If one slayer at a time managed to fight the demons to a draw - tons of slayers all over the world ought to be able to wipe out most of the evil demons from the world. And with the core slayers - the ones with Buffy and Faith who know whats going on traveling around the world and cluing people in, sooner or later they will take trhe offense and start closing hellmouths.

And most of the magic, especially the dark magic in the worlds draws on hellmouths. And the spell that created the slayer was specifically dark magic - even if the spell that changed the rules was cast by Willow the White. So when the last hellmouth closes, the slayers all revert to human. Any remaining demons that were not wiped out by all those slayers either die (or if their human side was strong enough) become 100% human.

OK fanwanking - but really logical fanwanking.


Nutty - May 21, 2003 11:51:54 am PDT #1655 of 10001
"Mister Spock is on his fanny, sir. Reports heavy damage."

I was talking the finale over with a coworker who isn't a fan, but whose roommate is, and realized that for me, the finale was emotionally satisfying, but intellectually unsatisfying.

By which I mean, if I try to make it work logically, and jibe with all the previous plot developments, I will just get frustrated and annoyed. But without any deep analysis, and having only watched it once, in pleasing company, laughing a lot and bleh-ing in chorus to the excessive schmoop, I really did enjoy it, even though I know it will probably not stand up to the hard scrutiny I tend to prefer.

Which means, I think, I can never watch it again, so as not to harsh my mellow.


Wenda - May 21, 2003 11:52:04 am PDT #1656 of 10001
"I'm a mouse with a piece of string, Bear. The possibilities are endless." - Tutter

but I do feel condemned a little, and don't necessarily appreciate it.

I'm sorry, Sean. That's why I mentioned the other things I don't like, to give some perspective on how I see things. It's quite possible for me to separate the person from the act, and I'm not going to go around saying I think Barbie dolls are a good thing just because little girls do get pleasure from playing with them that outweighs the negative body image issues they may (or may not) develop (I mean, I played with Barbies, and I've never been anorexic, so Barbies must be okay, right?).

If you want to be defined totally by your willingness to snuggle with people who love you when you don't love them the same way, then be my guest, but you're going to have to accept that I'm going to feel a certain way about you. Or you could not care, which is probably the best way to deal.

My sister wants to buy an SUV. Damn her.


ZeusGirl - May 21, 2003 11:52:30 am PDT #1657 of 10001
"Angel and Spike, The Starsky and Hutch of the Netherworld" - Albert Einstein in his speech to the U.N. Security Council, Sept., 1955.

I need three arms to write out all these apparently pent up and long winded posts that are pouring out of me.

Anyone know a spell to get me a third arm?