I, too, believe that Buffy and Spike had comfort sex on the eve of the battle, and I find myself feeling surprisingly OK with this, despite myriad objections I've harbored about their getting back together in any kind of physical sense. Because of the extraordinary circumstances they were in, and because of the subtle way it was implied. Just the long wordless look across the room, then quiet fade-out to black. I loved that.

Okay - I think it's very funny (in a fun way) that Plei, candy and I all think there was most likely the sex, are all cool about it, and all dreaded it since the end of Seeing Red.

I wish Joss had written all B/S scenes from S6 til now. I would've been OK. The other writers just don't get it right IMO. I really think Joss is THE best writer of the relationship stuff. Not too schmoopy, they are more like real people and he makes it fit with the characters. I felt more emotional truth with B/S in Chosen than I ever have.

I am so grateful for that because my bitterness is vast.

what is Raptor Girl up to this morning?

Dagnabbit, Plei! You stole my post!

There was no sex. Stop it.

Yeah, I wish Joss had written the whole thing too.

Bastard.

In Spoilers, Hec said this on February 27:

Getting less and less happy with the image of Buffy and Spike kissing anywhere in the last episode.

Then Victor said:

Well,maybe if it's a kiss goodbye.

And Hec again:

Maybe if it's a kiss that leaves dust on her lips.

Cindy, when you eventually said that Buffy's attitude was let's see where this relationship goes (vis a vis Spike), I think that was key. If you believe she said/thought this, then no, she wasn't a user; she was someone closing out the past (Angel) and leaving herself open to where things were going with Spike in the future, though that didn't mean it was a definite commitment.

I just didn't believe she said/thought that. A lot of people believe Buffy just feels friendship-with-history for Spike. If you believe that, then Buffy is using him.

You don't snuggle with a person who's in love with you if you are not open to the possibility of exploring and returning those feelings the same way. If you do that, then you are a user, using someone's feelings for you to make yourself feel better.

If Buffy is open to the possibility of a romantic relationship with Spike when she snuggles with him--and for the sake of -my- BP I now think this-- then she is not a user.

I reserve the right to further clarify my thoughts. :)

Okay - I think it's very funny (in a fun way) that Plei, candy and I all think there was most likely the sex, are all cool about it, and all dreaded it since the end of Seeing Red.

See? I wasn't wrong when I said that something like that could be done in a way that didn't feel like a slap in the face. Slightly grumpy that my cheeks were made red all season before that, wondering why I kept turning them... but, hey, show's over.

Dagnabbit, Plei! You stole my post!

Moohahahaha! I am an EVIL COW!!!

Yeah, or at least, knows that her level of love for him isn't the passionate love he has for her, but more of a muted friendship with a history sort of deal. Which is why I think that a: he wasn't lying, and b: that it was a selfless act on his part to give her the freedom from any acute mourning, to let her find her own path.

Wrod on both parts-she loves him but she isn't in love with him (whether she realizes that or not) so he was being honest, and selfless at the same time.

I don't know if they had sex-and I like that I don't know.

Overall, I was impressed. But also sort of let down.

Loved the D&D game. Although in my gaming days, I was more into a superhero RPG called -- Champions.

Loved the quippage.

Loved the "hellmouth in Cleveland" tieback to "The Wish."

And I got my ending. The struggle against evil goes on. A happier ending than I expected, and leaving things wide open for a spinoff, sequel, one-off movie, or anthology series. The bus should be painted in squares and rectangles, heavy on the primary colors. :)

A bit perturbed that so much was made of the SiTs being the Last Potentials, the ones not killed by the Bringers. And then in the last 20 minutes, we learn that there are still a lot more potentials out there. Though I loved the baseball player moment -- it seemed epiphanic. But I also thought of the potential for unleashing a lot of bullies on the world.

At the reference to Spike and Angel locked in a room, I had to explain slash to Hubs.

As to Andrew, I think he genuinely believes that Anya died saving his life. Seems she did save his bacon at least once or twice during the fight -- or at least was more proactive. And when you're trying to swing a sword at a dozen Ubervamps (or cowering from same), there's not a lot of room to concentrate on what someone else is doing. But even if Andrew told Xander a story, he was doing what he does best -- being the real comfortador of the group.

The Fall of the Sign -- LOL moment. Loud and long.

I can see why Spike got the amulet. But it felt too much like the climax to 6 seasons of "The Redemption of Spike, the Vampire" instead of BtVS.

Kennedy and Willow earned their schmoop in the principal's office.

Naughty Wood, scaring Faith like that! He should be punished. But I'm sure Faith will come up with some ideas on that.

You don't snuggle with a person who's in love with you if you are not open to the possibility of exploring and returning those feelings the same way. If you do that, then you are a user, using someone's feelings for you to make yourself feel better.

And I'm once again going to state that as someone who has been on both sides of the issue, Nuh and Uh.

That's just silly, and a very black and white view on interpersonal relationships.

And I will repost why I don't think she was using him, right now:

Basic things I try to keep in mind when thinking about Buffy and Spike and Season Seven:

• No matter how much he's changed because of the soul, there is still a complicated history between them that includes house-busting sex, an affair that was closer to war than love, attempted rape, a few years as mortal enemies, and demonstrations of love that included chaining the loved one up and threatening her.
• As usual, there's a apocalypse to thwart
• Buffy's only 22, and her romantic life has been a "turgid supernatural soap opera."

Re: Buffy is using Spike. The evidence for this seems to be in things like Buffy being willing to accept a certain amount of comfort and support from him while realizing that she's not in a state to be in a romantic relationship with him at this juncture.

Spike is aware of how she feels. So, following the bouncing user argument ball, this means that he's allowing himself to be used? Not sure how that follows. He's aware of what she can and cannot give him at this point. He's not pressing her for more, and in 7x22, she's not pressuring him into letting her stay there. She's just asking.

Why do I not see this as using post cookie-dough?

She doesn't see it as a something with a future, but she also doesn't see it as something that isn't anything, if that makes sense. In End of Days, she was pretty firm with the maybe, if we get through this, we'll see what might happen. She's was honest with him in admitting that she doesn't know what it means, or if it means anything. See: Buffy is 22, and her romantic life has been a turgid supernatural soap opera.

Re: Buffy takes and gives him nothing.

If she gives him nothing, what then, is Buffy getting him out of the basement and taking him to Xander's for his safety? What is Buffy refusing to kill him, or to give up on him, after he's been used as a sleeper agent? What is Buffy making rescuing him from the Bringers a top priority? What is Buffy, knowing that Riley doesn't like him or approve of him, pulling in one last favour from the Initiative to save Spike?

Buffy may not have been able to love him as he would have wished for her to love him, but she didn't simply take without giving. Buffy gave him her belief, her faith, and her strength. Buffy gave him her trust, if not her heart.

I cannot see that as nothing.

I cannot see that as using.