I feel like there are two groups of people in this conversation. There are people who know what's being discussed, and people who don't. And if the people in the first group aren't willing to let the rest of us in on what's really going on, then perhaps it should be dealt with in backchannel. The vague accusations are helping no one.

What Jess said.

Also, to state the stupidly obvious, personal attacks/insults are in the eye of the beholder. I could probably fling a few sharp words at Allyson in frustration that she would brush off, but those same words aimed at someone else might truly offend them. When you factor in 800 or 1000 other people, all with their own quirks and hot buttons, it gets really complicated.

Also, to state the stupidly obvious, personal attacks/insults are in the eye of the beholder. I could probably fling a few sharp words at Allyson in frustration that she would brush off, but those same words aimed at someone else might truly offend them. When you factor in 800 or 1000 other people, all with their own quirks and hot buttons, it gets really complicated.

When you factor in that some of us (looking at me) are the really warm fuzzy type who take offense on behalf of others sometimes, then it can get really messy.

I feel like there are two groups of people in this conversation. There are people who know what's being discussed, and people who don't.

Three, actually. There's those of us who don't really care and think this subject has drug out too long, forcing us once again to revisit old conflicts which were better left undisturbed.

Much love, but there is indeed such a thing as too much process. And this is a Californian saying that.

When you factor in that some of us (looking at me) are the really warm fuzzy type who take offense on behalf of others sometimes, then it can get really messy.

I get that, but, again -- and I'm being serious, not snarky -- beyond acknowledging that yes, some people feel steamrolled over and less likely to speak up; yes, some people are too aggressive; and yes, it's important to make an effort to play nice and be thoughtful before hitting "Post," what else can we do?

Oh, and calling people on their bullshit when you see it.

Though I have to admit taking offense on behalf of other people is a dicey proposition, because....what if *they* aren't offended? Or, as (I think) Micole put it yesterday, "Stop putting words in my mouth."

IMO, the only problem we have is discussing ad infinitum the minutae of being a community. And it's one of the flaws that makes our community human. And I love us for it.

Beating Dead Horses R Us.

I'm just trying to figure out what's driving this conversation. It feels like more than just our annual spring cleaning, for some reason.

I think it's a number of things coming to a head. Most of them have been mentioned above -- stressful world situation, stressful personal situations for many Buffistas (and I'm sure I'm not the only one here who hasn't mentioned things), apparent end of the Buffyverse leading to issues about the direction of the board. The situation just needed a catalyst to get the discussion going. And Beej's leaving plus Rafmun's blunt remarks provided that catalyst.

Beating Dead Horses R Us.

Can this be the next thread title?

Can this be the next thread title?

Be my guest. Though it would be unseemly to electioneer on its behalf.

When you factor in 800 or 1000 other people, all with their own quirks and hot buttons, it gets really complicated.

I love the complicated. Loved that post, Dana.

I've learned over time that people view me as harsh, and I view others as hothouse flowers, and I bring that bias to the table, and sometimes lose sight of it. And this is usually where I fail, or hurt people's feelings, because I've discounted them in that way. I can also be horribly mean and terribly ugly in a malicious way, which is my worst quality, followed by arrogance.

Since Jen K., I tend to go to notepad and write my hatefulness. Read it over and over and edit it down until I can find a less hateful place. The onus is on me, to take responsibility for my words.

I've learned over time that people view me as harsh...

That's odd. I've always seen you as meek and docile.

How is it possible that we lost more people than we did? What evidence do you have to support your probably?

We have one clear cause-and-effect example. I think it's safe to assume that it probably left a bad taste in some mouths that just stopped coming around.

...You'll advocate for the weakest link, capital be damned, which is honorable. I'll cut their throat at first rumblings of trolldom, capital be damned, which i also believe is honorable.

Allyson, I appreciate your post above, all of it. I'm just reposting the end.

Part of it is temprament, I acknowledge this. But part of it is an ethic...

I really belive the best way to participate in and take care of this community is to nurture it (heaven knows it's nurtured me from those awful days in September through a job hunt that took entirely too long).

I don't mean that in some sort of squishy hippie way. It's very deliberate. Super Porny Pants makes people laugh. I know that's not an absolute (humor varries) but it is the intent. I've been blessed with a certain amount of wit and I try to share it. I like how it can take people out of themselves, out of their pain, out of the mundane. I can't program this board, but I try to "build" it in ways that make people glad they're here and want to stay. It's not just cracking jokes, it's celebrating others humor as well. I've probably placed twice as many COMMS as I've ever been given.

Plenty of times someone has pissed me off and I've been ready fucking gut them, and I certainly can-- a one-liner can be weilded in any manner of ways. I really try not to, though, because it cuts the fabric of the board along with the son of a bitch who has it coming.

The benefit of the doubt you see is the same, it's a choice. It's not always easy to do but it comes from the POV that in the long run it's better to prevent a tear than try to fix one.