Rafmun, that's rude and flame-baity. Please keep your discourse civil.

I failed to understand that members of the clique are guided by other guidelines.

You're misinterpreting Steph's post. She didn't mean that there is a clique WITHIN the community, she meant that the community itself is a clique. There's no inner circle. "The clique" means everyone who posts.

is not used to justify rude behavior, which is what you're suggesting, Java. I think what you're seeing is that it's often used to excuse it

I'm not seeing much of a difference.

If it's unacceptable behaivor to, say, make a personal insult it's still unacceptable even if the person has done good things for the group.

In fact, to me it's a little worse. A person who's a fixture around here DOES know better. If anything, the apology and any amends should be all the quicker because of that knowledge and investment in the community.

There's no inner circle. "The clique" means everyone who posts.

Of COURSE there is an innner circle.

A minute ago that was declared alright. It is alright, as long as they don't push people around and get excused for it.

And I really think calling Rafmun a troll and/or a flamer is inappropriate and does not add to the discourse. It's also inaccurate, he's been around, he cares about this place, he is making important points. One may not AGREE with him, but he's not here to stir poo and laugh.

If it's unacceptable behaivor to, say, make a personal insult it's still unacceptable even if the person has done good things for the group.

Are there really all that many personal insults here? That's a serious question. When I think of instances in which "social capital" is applied to excuse a situation it's more often a misunderstanding, OR much MUCH more often a case where someone makes a strong statement that other people disagree with. Such as:

Hec: "I had the worst fucking experience with the person who edited my book -- what a controlling asswipe. Typical editor."

[NB: I'm an editor, so that's the basis for my hackneyed example.]

I could either call Hec out as a jerk, demand an apology, warn him in-thread, OR cut him some slack, *because* I've known him for a long time (or what feels like a long time....) and I know that he's not given to nasty broad-based ad hominems, and he's more than likely not personally attacking me.

It's happened a good deal here. I remember a heated "The military SUCKS!" "*I* have a brother in the military!" mini-fluffle, and I think some social capital was applied there by some people.

Rafmun, apology accepted. Thanks for that. I mean it.

It's happened a good deal here. I remember a heated "The military SUCKS!" "*I* have a brother in the military!" mini-fluffle, and I think some social capital was applied there by some people.

That's where we lost Jen, actually.

I have a question. Seriously. It seems like there's a perception among some people that personal attacks are being posted right and left, and people are getting away with it because of social capital.

I'm not in every thread, but I can't think of a single personal attack being posted by anyone, new, old, popular or un, in recent memory. (Not since Zoe, if I had to put a date on it.) Not every post has been sweetness and light, but I can't put my finger on anything that I'd class as a personal attack. Not one post.

So I want to know, what's driving this conversation? I'm honestly baffled as to what we're really talking about.

[huh, x-post]

Two things:

a) "Clique" isn't that bad a word. Or only in the double-standard sense.

b) Social capital has no gold standard.

To expound:

Buffistas are a narrow exclusive circle or group of persons; especially : one held together by common interests, views, or purposes. Oh, you may rail at the exclusive, but the fact is, like any online community, some fit, some fall away. Never gonna be different, never has been, even outside these hallowed walls. Sub-cliques also exist. It's perfectly possible for me to stride into Spoilers and do the most newbie-fied flying leap into the avocado dip. Spoilers is a clique, I'm not in it, but still I sleep well at night.

Cliques are not inner circles. No, let me rephrase: cliques are not the inner circle. Just like we don't agree on a damned thing, we couldn't name the same inner circle. Dare you.

And on social capital. Shawn can say things to me that she couldn't say with the same lack of offense to ... Le Nubian. That pesky rate of exchange thing. Not to mention inflation. There are people, in general, with strong currency. I doubt anyone is the American dollar, though.

And so it goes.

Do we have examples of big bad posters trampling roughshod among the users, newbies and oldbies alike, kicking asses but not bothering to take names?

Or do we have a coagulation of people, thicker in clumps and mobile interacting as people do?

You can't legislate the humanity away. You can just urge people to remember just because it looks like ethernet packets when it hits your computer doesn't mean it didn't start out organic. With brain chemistry.

If you want social capital to disappear, you need to start outside this narrow hall.

A person who's a fixture around here DOES know better.

Yes, but I think it allows them to have a bad day in ways someone with no capital cannot. It's about the familiar.

If you come in and start calling everyone a bunch of stupid cunts, Trudy, I'll be shocked and amazed, and wonder what the hell happened, and be concerned, because it's out of character.

With a stranger, who's not earned any social capital, I just think, "asshole."

You tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, Trudy. Which is nice, I suppose. I tend to think that everyone is a potential asshole 'til they prove otherwise (capital). I'm suspicious like that. Which is a bit like not taking candy from strangers. A different sort of survival mechanism.

You'll give anyone a shot, which means you probably meet more people than I do. I give hardly anyone a shot, which means I probably don't get hurt by being fucked over very often.

You'll advocate for the weakest link, capital be damned, which is honorable. I'll cut their throat at first rumblings of trolldom, capital be damned, which i also believe is honorable.

Clash of beliefs. It's all very interesting to me.