We use the latest in scientific technology and state-of-the-art weaponry and you, if I understand correctly, poke them with a sharp stick.

Dr. Walsh ,'Potential'


Bureaucracy 2: Like Sartre, Only Longer  

A thread to discuss naming threads, board policy, new thread suggestions, and anything else that has to do with board administration and maintenance. Guaranteed to include lively debate and polls. Natter discouraged, but not deleted.

Current Stompy Feet: ita, Jon B, DXMachina, P.M. Marcontell, Liese S., amych


DavidS - Mar 31, 2004 7:49:21 am PST #8553 of 10005
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."

As Dana said Jen K and John H have both left. msbelle has noted that she had left for a few months and Karl posted himself that he has moved on due to board issues. Cindy has left as well. Newbie beej is now gone, possibly dissuading other lurkers from posting. We're not to know, but there are over 1000 registered participants here. Personally, I have cut back my posting because I either am afraid to post, or feel ignored. Maybe that's my failing, I'm happy to acknowledge it, so I'm ready to move on.

These people left for a variety of reasons, not solely and specifically because of a more aggressive posting style. Also, they left over a long stretch of time - not indicative of a recent sea-change at b.org.

Sean, Steph - y'all are getting all riled up and bringing the hot rhetoric. That's your prerogative, but I'm getting more heat than light at the moment. I do understand feeling protective about the board, and perhaps resentful about Rafmun's allegations, but the board's fine and it didn't do any damage, and I think some useful things have come out of this discussion even if they are not directly related to either my original post, or Rafmun's points.

Useful Things I Got From This Discussion:
Matt's history of the Bronze: I've really come to rely on the perspective of people with longtime experience in different communities. Ple's tales of running boards are always filled with rueful wisdom and, Matt's story is another excellent example of both what's wonderful about an internet community and also its limit and scope. It seems very important to me to reiterate - we can't be all things to all people. It's best for us to nurture those things which we have come to identify as distinctly our own.

Shawn's Good Citizenship: I got knocked around a bit when I first used the phrase "social capital" in Bureaucracy, but it's really not such a bad thing. It makes people feel anxious about being judged, I guess, or worrying about hierarchy of people that are esteemed, but Shawn's point is that it's not about how you lose your social capital. It's how you gain it. People that organize the F2F get it. People that organize charities get it. People who reach out to other Buffistas get it. People who, by the quality of their writing, their wit, their erudition, their insight, their compassion, their snark - get it. We know what we value. When you add to the community, the community values you. That's not so abstract or scary. That's a positive.

Nutty's corollaries: Her quick summary of what went right and awry in this discussion articulated (for me) some of my inchoate objections. And as many people have noted, there's nothing at all wrong with aspiring to some level of graciousness, to reflecting on whether I'm adding or subtracting to the discourse. I remember a time when I'd been backbiting in the threads, and seeing one of Nutty's posts in Bureaucracy (long time back) and just thinking, "Yeah, I need to quit crapping on things. What can I bring to the board, insead of bitching about it."

Elena's point: The US constitution is designed to prevent a tyranny of the majority. It's wise and useful to be accomodating to the minority at times. To bend a little makes a lot of thing work.

Something I articulated: The idea of the center and the edge. Sometimes you are going to be in the minority and digging in your heels against a tidal flood going the other direction is not the best response. We will differ in opinion. Not everybody gets what they want. That's not the point - the point is about maintaining a center place where we can (see above) nurture the distinctly Buffista values. Which includes free discoursee, snarking, civility, discursive riffing, courtesy, play, kindness. We will risk offense, but we don't go out of our way to give it.


Sean K - Mar 31, 2004 7:50:29 am PST #8554 of 10005
You can't leave me to my own devices; my devices are Nap and Eat. -Zenkitty

Anyway, in describing this thing to Bob last night, he said we're kind of like an anarchic collective.

"I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week, but all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs..."

t /Monty Python


Scrappy - Mar 31, 2004 7:51:19 am PST #8555 of 10005
Life moves pretty fast. You don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.

Lovely, Hec.


Dana - Mar 31, 2004 7:52:19 am PST #8556 of 10005
I'm terrifically busy with my ennui.

Okay. So, to add to site ettiquette:

  • Maybe you've started posting, and you feel like you don't fit in. Maybe you think your posts are being ignored. The good news? Most of us feel like that at one time or another. Honestly. The bad news? There's probably no easy way to fix it. Some suggestions: remember that threads like Natter move very fast, and it's impossible for everyone to keep up with everything that's said there. Also remember that there are a boatload of threads, most of which have their own subcommunities. No one person belongs to every section of the board, and no one person speaks for the board as a whole. If you still have an issue, bring it to Bureaucracy, and we'll talk about it.

  • We're a very independent group here. Because of this, we react badly to anything that comes across as preaching. We also react badly when told we need to modify our behavior to accommodate someone or something. But there's more good news: it's entirely possible to have a disagreement with people on the board and still remain a member of the community. No one will kick you off the board for having a different opinion. Just think before you post.

It's probably too wordy and might not get everything across. Feel free to tear it apart, modify it, reject it, whatever.


Jesse - Mar 31, 2004 7:53:11 am PST #8557 of 10005
Sometimes I trip on how happy we could be.

Erk. Didn't mean for it to be snotty, really really. It had just occurred to me all of a sudden, and as is my wont, I posted without thinking how it sounded.

I think I'll stop posting here.

No, no! That's the whole point -- don't stop posting, just clarify. See how it works? Now we all know.


lori - Mar 31, 2004 7:54:50 am PST #8558 of 10005

Nice work, Dana. I'm always happy to leave writing chores to others more capable than I. I are an engineer, afterall.


Sean K - Mar 31, 2004 7:54:56 am PST #8559 of 10005
You can't leave me to my own devices; my devices are Nap and Eat. -Zenkitty

Sean, Steph - y'all are getting all riled up and bringing the hot rhetoric. That's your prerogative, but I'm getting more heat than light at the moment.

Yeah. I know. Sorry. Sorry, everyone. I've taken up whacking my fingers really hard with a hammer when they reach for the key board to post in this thread.

I'm not sure how I made this post, though. Probably with my nose.


Aims - Mar 31, 2004 7:56:35 am PST #8560 of 10005
Shit's all sorts of different now.

QUESTION THAT HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE LAST ELEVENTY BAJILLION POSTS

If I have a problem with something in a thread, and it does not involve me directly, would it be better to say something in-thread, risking a giant kerfuffle, or should I go about it backchannel?

edited to spell eleventy right because misspelling fake words is wrong.


billytea - Mar 31, 2004 7:56:51 am PST #8561 of 10005
You were a wrong baby who grew up wrong. The wrong kind of wrong. It's better you hear it from a friend.

I'm not sure how I made this post, though. Probably with my nose.

That could explain the snotty tone...

Kidding! Seriously. Except about your nose. Dude, it's called a handkerchief. Broken fingers are no excuse.


Michele T. - Mar 31, 2004 7:57:37 am PST #8562 of 10005
with a gleam in my eye, and an almost airtight alibi

These people left for a variety of reasons, not solely and specifically because of a more aggressive posting style.

Hell, *I* left for a while in part because of John H.'s aggressive and combatative posting style.