Incidentally, GC, I'm sorry to use you as an example about bringing things to a vote or raising objections. I do understand both your upset and why you wouldn't choose to pursue it. The larger isssue for me, is that a lot of people put in a lot of very difficult time trying to provide for these instances. The protocols are in place exactly to give people a voice when they feel over-shouted. I can't emphasize that enough.

Let's look back at the thread to see what we know - just from this thead:

I don't think this is what we know so much as what some people's opinions are.

1) Suggestions/issues from newbies like me don't count, b/c they're new and don't know the culture.

They do count, but people are going to say "Who are you? Are you sure you understand the culture here, or are you making suggestions that may not be as burning an issue to others as it is to you?"

2) Issues raised by sensitive posters like Gloomcookie don't count, b/c darn it, there are policies in place to deal with their issues, and if they don't find that enough, tough.

The policies are in place because of people's different levels of sensitivity. Which I think is a good thing, because while *I* may have no problem with saying "Trudy, I think the innuendo you made was a little over the line and made me uncomfortable", someone else may not want to say "Jilli, I think you're crazy and need to stop having your stuffed bunny post", at which point they can bring it to this thread and see if 9 other people agree with them.

3) Issues raised by avoidy types like Beverly and Sue and MeganE and others can't count, b/c they don't raise the issues loud enough, or often enough, and when they do, loud types are more than prepared to be louder and post more.

I consider myself an avoidy type, but I've never thought that my opinion doesn't count here just because I can't manage to post as often as people who might have a different opinion.

4) Long term activist posters like Elana and Trudi who have compromised again and again, but who grow frustrated with lack of reciprocation on behalf of a few self interested posters don't count b/c they should "arse up" and stick it out, and if not, it's on them.

How? How have they compromised again and again? If they really REALLY don't feel they should have to make the compromises they have (and I can't think of one except the DM Press thing), then they should have not of compromised. If they think someone isn't playing fair or reciprocating (and again, I have no idea what issues should have reciprocation on, so I'm forming an opinion in the dark), they should say so. If they don't say so (and say so *clearly*), then yes, it is on them.

Point by point:

Let's look back at the thread to see what we know - just from this thead:

Let's look at your perspective here, I know perfectly well what I know.

1) Suggestions/issues from newbies like me don't count, b/c they're new and don't know the culture.

Considering that we've spent over 100 posts trying to understand you and address your concerns, I'd say they count a lot.

2) Issues raised by sensitive posters like Gloomcookie don't count, b/c darn it, there are policies in place to deal with their issues, and if they don't find that enough, tough.

Several of us have already said that her issues are a concern and should not be brushed aside. And her issue was with an individual who has already been reprimanded in thread. What would you have us do?

3) Issues raised by avoidy types like Beverly and Sue and MeganE and others can't count, b/c they don't raise the issues loud enough, or often enough, and when they do, loud types are more than prepared to be louder and post more.

What? That's your assertion. From where I'm sitting, issues that we talky-meat types try to discuss get dismissed because people don't want to continue the discussion. I don't think Beverly or Sue or MeganE's opinions haven't counted.

4) Long term activist posters like Elana and Trudi who have compromised again and again, but who grow frustrated with lack of reciprocation on behalf of a few self interested posters don't count b/c they should "arse up" and stick it out, and if not, it's on them.

Who are you talking to? Most of us have been listening and considering every post that Elena and Trudy make. What does "count" mean, anyway?

So, who carries the day most of the time? Seems like a small group of activist posters who are able to discount and deluge the opinions of the rest.

You've mentioned 7 posters who have been "discounted" by everyone else (more than 7.) I don't follow your "small group" logic.

You are starting to sound like the voice of a silent majority. This does not garner you credibility. I should know.

Rafmun, you still haven't proposed what it is we should do about our apparent shortcomings. So far all I see is pointing out a problem, in increasing critcal tones of the board and a majority of its active posters without any solutions.

That's what tends to piss me off. I have no problem being asked to think about my behavior if its offensive to someone but your criticism doesn't strike me as particularly constructive. It's just upset a whole lot of people on both sides of the issue.

the hell is going on in here?

t backs away slowly

No, that won't work. So I'll just address this:

So, who carries the day most of the time? Seems like a small group of activist posters who are able to discount and deluge the opinions of the rest.

Rafmun, assuming your thesis is correct, what would you have us do?

We do have policies in place to handle offensive posts and posters, Gloomcookie's reluctance to use them notwithstanding. If you're a long-time lurker you witnessed the endless constitutional conventions over policy and process during which board function and structure were hammered out.

You seem to be saying, and pardon me if I'm misrepresenting you, "you're not nice enough!"

And, well, that's probably true. The world isn't nice enough either. But how can that be rectified? We can't protect the voices of people who will not speak. We can't make the lurkers talk, no matter how much they may support us in email.

Do you have a concrete suggestion for handling the problems you have identified? This board is in constant tension between the need to keep ourselves civil and the need to communicate clearly, and none of us are always able to do both at once. Those of us who are willing to post at all.

Beverly, rafmun said upthread that some people are selfish and don't have interest in the board health in general, I think this is what Shawn is talking about.

Thanks for that. And thank you, too, Shawn, for the clarification. Plei, no ack! The hasty retreat sounded a little passive agressive (Srew you guys! I'm goin' home!), and I really hope it wasn't taken that way. I just am not built for the endurance arguing, however much I might wish I was. Am. Were. What.ever.

I'ma go read some fantasy porn, written by my lovely and talented DH. Bet I have a better afternoon.

You are starting to sound like the voice of a silent majority. This does not garner you credibility. I should know.

Aww, hon. You *know* the lurkers gots your back.

David, thanks for the clarification.

I have to say, too, that I'm a little uncomfortable being classified as "sensitive." I did call said poster on her rudeness in-thread. I dare say that anyone who was addressed in the way I was in this instance would be offended. Anyway, that's all.

I wasn't insulted either. I may not agree with everything Rafmun said, but saying it feels TO HIM as if there is a vocal minority driving the direction of the board is a valid question to look into. I am a bit sad that almost no one responded to his (or Hec's or Trudy's) posts by saying "IS there?" "Am I possibly making people feel disenfranchised?" "Is there a way to make the amazingly cool doscourse on this board even MORE cool?" "How can I understand these folks who feel so differently from me better?" but instead went right to defensiveness.

I'm not one of those peeps who hates conflict. I like it and I'm gabby. Because of that, I know I have run roughshod over others in the past and thereby missed out and what they could teach me. I still do on occaision, but I'm aware of it and trying to deal as fairly and openly as possible with people, even those who for some inexplicable reason do not think, feel, or react the way I do. It's not easy (for me, at least--I think it's easier for many sweeter-by-nature people here on this board) but it's worth it.

someone else may not want to say "Jilli, I think you're crazy and need to stop having your stuffed bunny post"

What does the one have to do with the other, unless...

*gasp*

...are you saying clovis isn't real?

I don't know whether to cry or move my troops south to take New Zealand.