1) Suggestions/issues from newbies like me don't count, b/c they're new and don't know the culture.

That's not my opinion and I just said so.

2) Issues raised by sensitive posters like Gloomcookie don't count, b/c darn it, there are policies in place to deal with their issues, and if they don't find that enough, tough.

They count. She's got the right to pursue. If she doesn't, that's her choice. That's not "tough noogies" - it's just that people fought hard to create procedures that made people feel enfranchised. Moreover, the preferred "in-thread" objections also happened - so I don't see how that's ignoring her concerns.

3) Issues raised by avoidy types like Beverly and Sue and MeganE and others can't count, b/c they don't raise the issues loud enough, or often enough, and when they do, loud types are more than prepared to be louder and post more.

Bottom line: you have participate. You can bring an issue to vote without a long debate. If you don't participate...nobody's going to read your mind.

4) Long term activist posters like Elana and Trudi who have compromised again and again, but who grow frustrated with lack of reciprocation on behalf of a few self interested posters don't count b/c they should "arse up" and stick it out, and if not, it's on them.

It's on them to work for the changes that they want. Again, I think Elena could've found a compromise instead of a capitulation.

I'm willing to make a lot of accomodations to make people feel like they have a voice here. But mind-reading isn't one of them. If they don't use their voice, that absolutely is their responsibility.

If I were married to a long-time Kiwani, I wouldn't assume I knew the culture well enough to go in and insult the whole group. It's rude to go in to a group of people who are strangers -- or to whom you are a stranger -- and assert the ways in which they suck. It just is.

Misdirection again. This is how discussion gets derailed so often.

Anyway, my term here became irrelevent when other, long term posters agreed with some of the points I brought up. Discount my opinion completely because I'm new - that's fine with me. But do you dismiss those that have been here longer, and agree with some of my observations?

I think what Rafmun described -- a minority persisting in pushing their agenda until people are driven away -- does qualify as sucking.

Unsurprisingly, I agree with Steph, and I would say that it happens more often than people are aware of.

It's part of being in a large group. Culture changes, boards change, people change.

Disagreeing is not the same as dismissing.

No problem, Susan. I'm sorry that I inadvertently took the discussion from your coming baby wonderfulness to a bad place.

Disagreeing is not the same as dismissing.

Exactly.

1) Rafmun you have been defended by many of us on your right to post.

2) What exactly should we do about Gloomcookies concerns except express how the board has chosen to deal with them? Really I am open to hearing this.

3) People thanked Beverly and Sue and Megan. We also agreed with them and continue to push some of their points.

4) You are the only person that I have seen say they don't count.

Not one person on this board has gotten their way 100% of the time. Why are the people who disagree with you or who feel attacked by your posts getting all of the credit for running things.

Incidentally, GC, I'm sorry to use you as an example about bringing things to a vote or raising objections. I do understand both your upset and why you wouldn't choose to pursue it. The larger isssue for me, is that a lot of people put in a lot of very difficult time trying to provide for these instances. The protocols are in place exactly to give people a voice when they feel over-shouted. I can't emphasize that enough.

Let's look back at the thread to see what we know - just from this thead:

I don't think this is what we know so much as what some people's opinions are.

1) Suggestions/issues from newbies like me don't count, b/c they're new and don't know the culture.

They do count, but people are going to say "Who are you? Are you sure you understand the culture here, or are you making suggestions that may not be as burning an issue to others as it is to you?"

2) Issues raised by sensitive posters like Gloomcookie don't count, b/c darn it, there are policies in place to deal with their issues, and if they don't find that enough, tough.

The policies are in place because of people's different levels of sensitivity. Which I think is a good thing, because while *I* may have no problem with saying "Trudy, I think the innuendo you made was a little over the line and made me uncomfortable", someone else may not want to say "Jilli, I think you're crazy and need to stop having your stuffed bunny post", at which point they can bring it to this thread and see if 9 other people agree with them.

3) Issues raised by avoidy types like Beverly and Sue and MeganE and others can't count, b/c they don't raise the issues loud enough, or often enough, and when they do, loud types are more than prepared to be louder and post more.

I consider myself an avoidy type, but I've never thought that my opinion doesn't count here just because I can't manage to post as often as people who might have a different opinion.

4) Long term activist posters like Elana and Trudi who have compromised again and again, but who grow frustrated with lack of reciprocation on behalf of a few self interested posters don't count b/c they should "arse up" and stick it out, and if not, it's on them.

How? How have they compromised again and again? If they really REALLY don't feel they should have to make the compromises they have (and I can't think of one except the DM Press thing), then they should have not of compromised. If they think someone isn't playing fair or reciprocating (and again, I have no idea what issues should have reciprocation on, so I'm forming an opinion in the dark), they should say so. If they don't say so (and say so *clearly*), then yes, it is on them.

Point by point:

Let's look back at the thread to see what we know - just from this thead:

Let's look at your perspective here, I know perfectly well what I know.

1) Suggestions/issues from newbies like me don't count, b/c they're new and don't know the culture.

Considering that we've spent over 100 posts trying to understand you and address your concerns, I'd say they count a lot.

2) Issues raised by sensitive posters like Gloomcookie don't count, b/c darn it, there are policies in place to deal with their issues, and if they don't find that enough, tough.

Several of us have already said that her issues are a concern and should not be brushed aside. And her issue was with an individual who has already been reprimanded in thread. What would you have us do?

3) Issues raised by avoidy types like Beverly and Sue and MeganE and others can't count, b/c they don't raise the issues loud enough, or often enough, and when they do, loud types are more than prepared to be louder and post more.

What? That's your assertion. From where I'm sitting, issues that we talky-meat types try to discuss get dismissed because people don't want to continue the discussion. I don't think Beverly or Sue or MeganE's opinions haven't counted.

4) Long term activist posters like Elana and Trudi who have compromised again and again, but who grow frustrated with lack of reciprocation on behalf of a few self interested posters don't count b/c they should "arse up" and stick it out, and if not, it's on them.

Who are you talking to? Most of us have been listening and considering every post that Elena and Trudy make. What does "count" mean, anyway?

So, who carries the day most of the time? Seems like a small group of activist posters who are able to discount and deluge the opinions of the rest.

You've mentioned 7 posters who have been "discounted" by everyone else (more than 7.) I don't follow your "small group" logic.

You are starting to sound like the voice of a silent majority. This does not garner you credibility. I should know.