I have a ton of thoughts (my thoughts are heavy) about the last 300 posts or so, but I can't make them make sense yet. But I just wanted to do that thing where you jump in and say something in someone's defense even though he or she didn't ask you to, hoping that he or she won't find it presumptuous. God, I hate all the qualifiers.

FWIW, I've seen Rafmun post elsewhere, because I've recently lurked in some new threads (don't worry, Canadians, I'm not stalkery. Much.) I also think he's bringing up some valid issues. Not everyone agrees they are issues, but, hey, what else is new? In any case, he's got a right to post 'em, and I haven't had any trouble following his line of thought or discerning what he's referring to (at least, I think I'm following).

Oh deer loward people, Rafmun does post elsewhere, in Natter this morning, for example. And he's married to a long-time poster and he knows the culture, so it's not like he's clueless, okay? He has some points he'd like addressed. Let's do that, and not attack him.

If I were married to a long-time Kiwani, I wouldn't assume I knew the culture well enough to go in and insult the whole group. It's rude to go in to a group of people who are strangers -- or to whom you are a stranger -- and assert the ways in which they suck. It just is. Other people on this board are married, and if their previously-hadn't-posted spouses came in and offered their opinion on how we suck, I'd react the same way.

This isn't health insurance. Spousal status doesn't imply automatic inclusion.

His post in Natter, to ask for directions, does not constitute in my mind, a member of the community.

I'm sorry if I misattributed posts or positions. I wish you all well. I can't do this any more.

Yet when a poster comes forward and explains that there is a problem in their opinion, a few others do backflips to try to demonstrate that no problem exists.

I'm really trying to stay out of this, but I have to take issue with this assertion, as it flat out accuses anybody here who doesn't agree there's a problem, of perfidy and obfuscation, which is a) patently ridiculous, and b) a little insulting.

Excuse me?

Beverly, rafmun said upthread that some people are selfish and don't have interest in the board health in general, I think this is what Shawn is talking about.

(psst, Teppy, it's "Kiwanian". Unless grandpa's been lying about it all these years.)

His post in Natter, to ask for directions, does not constitute in my mind, a member of the community.

I think his registering on the site qualifies him as a member, and gives him the right to post his opinion where ever he wants, including this thread. I really, really haven't agreed with most of his opinions, and I've been trying not to take offense at comments about a subset of people that I think I might be a part of, but I'll defend his right to post his mind here just like anyone else's.

Previous to voting, that's also how we came up with our consensus decisions.

The problem with this (and I think it's very similar to the deathmatch thing) is bullshit consensus of whoever's around at the moment. If four people are posting at one time and three of them agree, that says nothing about The Will of the Board. This is exactly why we have these long, drawn-out procedures -- so as many people as possible can participate, and we aren't flying off the handle.

Ack! Bev! I didn't want you to feel attacked! I just wanted to be clear.

it's perfectly legitimate for Buffista A to come into this thread and say that Buffista B is being insensitive and could someone please ask him/her to stop it, without saying Buffista B needs to be Warned.

of course they can, that is why the procedure that was voted on and approved says "action" instead of warning. I apologize for the confusion.

And Rafmun didn't ever called people assholes (if memory serves). Perhaps that is what was read and perhaps that is what was meant, but for me at least, the using of such words takes the discussion to a much more hostile place.

I don't agree with how Rafmun has been progressing the discussion. I think it is too vague, I think it ignores the possibility that this is what a minority opinion feels like sometimes, and I think that the support given to people here today has been discounted.