I don't know how to NOT be confrontational, any more than the conflict-avoidy types know how to be confrontational.

And the emotion of which Beverly speaks that comes from speaking out, I get that from NOT speaking out.

So, I don't really see any solution to what I don't see as a problem to begin with. Maybe I'm that jerk running people off the board, left and right. I'm also taking this all very personally, and thus, should take mine own walk and come back when I can see it as a big picture.

This is how we lose good people. It's how we lost Jen K. When did personal insults become alright here?

For the record, that's not my impression of why Jen K. left, and I'm still in regular contact with her.

Personal insults are not okay here, and I haven't seen a rise in them. People get called on it quickly here. You'd have to cite an example for that.

I think the danger is that if the conflict-avoidy types keep "losing", they'll eventually leave and the board will be the poorer for it.

shrugs This is exactly why we instituted voting. I concur that I don't want the board to only be a place for the most aggressive and willing to headbutt. But I feel like we've got things in place that address that.

"argue about whether the sky is blue or not"

The sky I see when I look out the window is obscured by clouds. I cannot say what color it is.

t /Fair Witness

For the record, that's not my impression of why Jen K. left, and I'm still in regular contact with her.

It was my impression and I talk to her regularly as well. It wasn't the only reason, but it was the final straw.

Deleted.

I meant for my post to be a follow up in agreeance with yours. I guess it came off as a "nuh uh" post.

Oh, okay. I was afraid I had expressed it badly.

It's how we lost Jen K.

I think that was me, solely, or at least, mine was the death blow. I feel responsible, at any rate.

Yes, but why not call for a vote, ignore any discussion after that point, and have the vote happen? Isn't that the exact reason we set it up in the first place?

Absolutely, Shawn. But like David said, voting on things like Death Match announcements is micromanaging (IMO). There's no easy solution. If we voted on everything, a lot of folks would get turned off and might eventually leave. If we don't vote, the louder folks win and the quieter folks might eventually leave. While I'm glad I got a "thanks" from Rafmun, I'm a little bit uncomfortable because I have no idea what the answer is, nor am I sure we need an answer.

And Gloomcookie -- what personal insults have you seen? I'm rarely in Natter and am way behind in Minearverse, but I haven't noticed things any worse than they've ever been.

feeling pressured and frustrated by a conversation and choosing to stop having it is not compromise

Then she should've stuck to her guns. I appreciate the play-nice impulse, and advocate it, and I'm for compromises that make the whole place work. But if you believe that you're not only right, but it's the right thing for the community then you should stick it out.

Man, you get forced to actually work at your job one day, and you miss a lot....

First, if I'm one of the rude, insensitive, pushy, domineering, wants-to-decide-the-direction-of-the-board people simply because I said I didn't like the Deathmatch posts, well so be it. I said I didn't like them. I didn't get histrionic about it, or flame-baity, or insulting, or mean. I expressed an opinion; not a veiled desire for the board to be run my way. (Damn West-Coast time stamps....)

Second, Rafmun, I am genuinely curious: how long have you lurked here? I'm just wondering how many of the tense-mellow cycles you've seen happen here.

Also, it makes me sad you have such a bad impression of the board.

(Man, I *really* didn't want to prolong this, but there are some comments I really feel compelled to address.)

No one is driven away, not really.

From what I have seen, that is false.

I'd really like examples of this assertion.

Threads change, the population changes. People leave for myriad reasons. Bitches is nothing like it once was - it's practically a chenille robe and fuzzy slippers now.

Except when it's just ooky.

Or perhaps it is because a few very prolific and increasingly agressive posters have succeeded in marginalizing some very long-term members who were happy to engage in productive and constructive discussion when it was truly about give-and-take, but who became frustrated that their willingness to concede points and move to compromise seemed increasingly exploited to satisfy the few, to the point where they just don't bother even debating much anymore b/c they see the conclusion as forgone anyway.

That's another assertion I'd really like to see examples of, or else I don't see any reason to take your word for it. I've been here a long time, and I haven't seen people be assholes to drive away long-term people. Or new people.

That impression would be accurate. Yes. A few posters are definately quite selfish and unwilling to accomodate the wishes and needs of others, and instead persistently require others to accomodate their wants and opinions.

Huh. If no one expressed any wants or opinions about the board, nothing would get done.

I am simply suggesting that there has occured a subtle (or not so subtle depending on your perspective) shift in the discourse here, and that it has become one sided, and that good people are bleeding away.

Leaving....the assholes? The ones who ponied up money to bring Nilly to the US? Or maybe the ones who got together to cheer ND up in a very very VERY rough time by giving him a Utilikilt? Or maybe you mean the people who sent Billytea an echidna skull. Or the time Allyson took ita in without ever having met her. All care packages I got after my surgery surely couldn't have come from the assholes....except they must have, since the good people are bleeding away.

I ought to delete this. Posting it is going to just prove that I'm one of the assholes. And, you know, I *am* an asshole. I'm an asshole when someone or something I love is being criticized. I'll defend it any way I can, even if that makes me come across as an asshole. So be it.