I read that Allyson did not regret her posts to Zoe, but that she did regret upsetting the community. She was pushed to say something she didn't feel. And she did say she would not behave in that manner in the future. I thought it was an honest open exchange. Just my view.

No! I am specifically not challenging Allyson on her intellectual content. I don't tend to agree with her drift, but that's not the problem I have.

If she cannot convey her intellectual content without resorting to rude words, I'd rather she waited a while and regained calm before trying to say anything. It's perfectly possible to argue -- even to argue unhappily -- without the use of rude words on either side.

By no means do I think Allyson's the only one who has gotten snide in Bureaucracy in the history of the world or even today, but she's doing it now (okay, sometime in the past 5 hours), and claiming that truth trumps politeness, a premise with which I disagree strenuously.

Okay, here's what confuses me. Allyson hasn't changed her stance. Are you asking her to restate her position in gentler words? Or are you asking her to change her position?

See, what I don't get is the point of asking her the same thing over and over again that's already been answered -- there must be a motive I'm not getting.

Can I say that I really don't see the point in this? Allyson said what she did last month and then, when other posters took issue with it, she backed down. She hasn't posted a damn thing to Zoe or about Zoe since until every other post in this thread about the Zoe Debate started containing a mention about Allyson's inappropriate comments. She responded honestly. Maybe it wasn't the nicest thing to say but she's owned up to that as well. She's not asking anyone to tell her that she's right. She's not looking for validation or approval. She did, however, state quite clearly that she backed down because she didn't want to upset Buffistas as a whole but she won't back down from her belief that Zoe is a troll.

Basically, I feel like Allyson is being poked here for something that was said weeks ago which she already apologized for. Maybe her tone is harsher than it should be but, were I in her postition, I'd be feeling pretty damn defensive right now and I don't think my tone would be any nicer.

Basically, I feel like Allyson is being poked here for something that was said weeks ago which she already apologized for. Maybe her tone is harsher than it should be but, were I in her postition, I'd be feeling pretty damn defensive right now and I don't think my tone would be any nicer.

What Bitterchick said.

Are you asking her to restate her position in gentler words? Or are you asking her to change her position?

Me, personally? The former and not the latter. I can see that she's unrepentant, and that's fine. I can't change her mind on this intellectual issue, and I don't expect to. But I do expect a more civil tongue than I've seen tonight. That's all.

I do think it's something we all need to be conscious of, especially now, because the chief thing we all seem to object to, in Zoe, is her lapses in civil discourse. If we continue to object to one instance of uncivility, I feel it worthwhile to object to other instances, in the interest of fairness and in the interest of keeping the board polite for and by everyone.

Okay, I understand.

I'm with PMM and bitterchick on this one.

But I do expect a more civil tongue than I've seen tonight. That's all.

Okay but you don't think that, maybe, at some point, we need to let this go? I believe the first mention of Allyson came here: Lyra Jane "Bureaucracy 1: Like Kafka, Only Funnier" Apr 11, 2003 3:32:57 pm EDT

Over seven hundreds posts later, Allyson addressed the issue: Allyson "Bureaucracy 1: Like Kafka, Only Funnier" Apr 14, 2003 3:53:46 pm EDT. I thought she was polite and calm and forthcoming. As the debate continued on and she felt as if she was being attacked, she got testy.

And now that I'm looking at this debate side by side with the Zoe debate, I'm getting testy. So I'm gonna go self-Doblerize.

Ciao!

By no means do I think Allyson's the only one who has gotten snide in Bureaucracy in the history of the world or even today, but she's doing it now (okay, sometime in the past 5 hours), and claiming that truth trumps politeness, a premise with which I disagree strenuously.

Just so I understand your position, Nutty, it would have been preferable or even okay if I had said:

"I feel as though Zoe is not One of Us. Since she refuses to acknowledge our feelings, and continues on in the same vein that is making a portion of our community insane with rage, I feel as though Zoe is not deserving of my respect. She has earned none, and in fact, has been quite successful at draining the small amount of respect I reserve for folks, simply for being human.

Furthermore, I felt that the situation had reached a point where it became acceptable to me, that she learn empathy through humiliation. I sprayed water in the face of the cat, hoping she would learn, or leave the premises. From what I had seen of Zoe's behavior, over time, it had become clear that she had no interest in adding a positive contribution to the Buffistas, and in fact, I suspect that she is more interested in receiving negative attention, and will become more and more annoying in order to get that attention.

I am not sorry for any pain I may have caused Zoe, except that I believe she probably enjoyed it, given that she continues to post as though there hasn't been 500 posts in Bureaucracy describing the pain she is causing. Instead, she chooses to ignore that pain and continue to post, which is a definate sign of disrespect to this community.

Because my actions in flaming Zoe bothered some Buffistas, I felt a wee bit bad about it. I felt that I should apologize to the offended Buffistas, because I do respect THEIR feelings. Because i respect their feelings, I apologized for hurting them.

I did not feel bad enough to wish I hadn't done it, because although it may lower some folks' opinion of me, I enjoyed flaming Zoe. I still feel some satisfaction for having done it, despite feeling sorry for the hurt feelings of some Buffistas."

Instead of say:

Zoe is subhuman, and deserved public humiliation, and no, ain't gonna apologize for it.

Because, to me, I'm saying the same thing, but in a more polite manner. I will of course spend the extra time to flesh out the words to make them more palatable, if it saves you pain, Nutty.

Because manners count.

For example. I adore Kat, I have for some time.

The conversation got heated. In using the word "Orwellian" (among other things, I believe) I was part (most?) of what upset her the other night. I feel like hell about this.

Did I hurt her feelings on purpose? No. But I screwed up and I owe her an apology.

This is the first part of it. When I figure out just what to say I'll send her a personal one as well.