Nutty, that's just the kind of thing that, were I Allyson, would be getting my back up and making me even more upset.

As you probably remember from the Go14 Debacle.

It shouldn't have been brought up in the first place, and fifty or a hundred posts like that aren't going to make Allyson change her mind about how she feels, for crying out loud.

It reads to me, and pretty much all of the posts directed after her statement read to me as the infamous pile-on. If someone says no, mind changing isn't going to happen, and I'm not going to apologize for answering the question honestly, then why the hell keep asking it/poking at it?

So, if I read it correctly, you're saying "Allyson, let us challenge you, but ignore the question, since we don't want to hear the response?"

Because a) you state that it shouldn't go unchallenged that b) she shouldn't say anything if she can't say anything nice.

Did I miss anything?

I read that Allyson did not regret her posts to Zoe, but that she did regret upsetting the community. She was pushed to say something she didn't feel. And she did say she would not behave in that manner in the future. I thought it was an honest open exchange. Just my view.

No! I am specifically not challenging Allyson on her intellectual content. I don't tend to agree with her drift, but that's not the problem I have.

If she cannot convey her intellectual content without resorting to rude words, I'd rather she waited a while and regained calm before trying to say anything. It's perfectly possible to argue -- even to argue unhappily -- without the use of rude words on either side.

By no means do I think Allyson's the only one who has gotten snide in Bureaucracy in the history of the world or even today, but she's doing it now (okay, sometime in the past 5 hours), and claiming that truth trumps politeness, a premise with which I disagree strenuously.

Okay, here's what confuses me. Allyson hasn't changed her stance. Are you asking her to restate her position in gentler words? Or are you asking her to change her position?

See, what I don't get is the point of asking her the same thing over and over again that's already been answered -- there must be a motive I'm not getting.

Can I say that I really don't see the point in this? Allyson said what she did last month and then, when other posters took issue with it, she backed down. She hasn't posted a damn thing to Zoe or about Zoe since until every other post in this thread about the Zoe Debate started containing a mention about Allyson's inappropriate comments. She responded honestly. Maybe it wasn't the nicest thing to say but she's owned up to that as well. She's not asking anyone to tell her that she's right. She's not looking for validation or approval. She did, however, state quite clearly that she backed down because she didn't want to upset Buffistas as a whole but she won't back down from her belief that Zoe is a troll.

Basically, I feel like Allyson is being poked here for something that was said weeks ago which she already apologized for. Maybe her tone is harsher than it should be but, were I in her postition, I'd be feeling pretty damn defensive right now and I don't think my tone would be any nicer.

Basically, I feel like Allyson is being poked here for something that was said weeks ago which she already apologized for. Maybe her tone is harsher than it should be but, were I in her postition, I'd be feeling pretty damn defensive right now and I don't think my tone would be any nicer.

What Bitterchick said.

Are you asking her to restate her position in gentler words? Or are you asking her to change her position?

Me, personally? The former and not the latter. I can see that she's unrepentant, and that's fine. I can't change her mind on this intellectual issue, and I don't expect to. But I do expect a more civil tongue than I've seen tonight. That's all.

I do think it's something we all need to be conscious of, especially now, because the chief thing we all seem to object to, in Zoe, is her lapses in civil discourse. If we continue to object to one instance of uncivility, I feel it worthwhile to object to other instances, in the interest of fairness and in the interest of keeping the board polite for and by everyone.

Okay, I understand.

I'm with PMM and bitterchick on this one.

But I do expect a more civil tongue than I've seen tonight. That's all.

Okay but you don't think that, maybe, at some point, we need to let this go? I believe the first mention of Allyson came here: Lyra Jane "Bureaucracy 1: Like Kafka, Only Funnier" Apr 11, 2003 3:32:57 pm EDT

Over seven hundreds posts later, Allyson addressed the issue: Allyson "Bureaucracy 1: Like Kafka, Only Funnier" Apr 14, 2003 3:53:46 pm EDT. I thought she was polite and calm and forthcoming. As the debate continued on and she felt as if she was being attacked, she got testy.

And now that I'm looking at this debate side by side with the Zoe debate, I'm getting testy. So I'm gonna go self-Doblerize.

Ciao!