Kat (and I'm guessing Allyson), I definitely see your point on the hand-wringing effect giving trolls not just equal but more than equal rights. Which seems to me the essence of trolldom - taking advantage.

I just don't see a better way to handle things. I mean, TWOP, for the brief time I wandered around the threads there made my hackles raise for the way that it was run. And I've seen some confrontations around here get to a point where, while I didn't think anyone was indulding in trollish behavior, someone on one side or the other could (or both) could have gotten stomped in a less tolerant environment.

Weird non-sequitar - An image of Sean Bean saying "They've got a net troll" just flashed in my mind.

Ken, this is my last post on this because I don't want to spend any more emotional energy. If I declare it's my last post, then usually it will keep me not posting which is Of The Good.

I boggle that people think that any moderation (or at least any non-whole-community enforcement of rules) means that the Buffistas would become TWOP. TWOP is one model of a posting board that has moderation. They moderate pretty heavily and have very strict guidelines.

There are so many other online communities that moderate and that have a similar level of discourse and respect as here. (Cafe Utne is one example, as is Echo). How community rules get enforced is at the root of our problems and I share a sense of hopelessness that voting will solve that. Because it hasn't yet. In fact, it's only made it so now we have this monster process in place and it doesn't stop the emotional thrash.

There are so many other online communities that moderate and that have a similar level of discourse and respect as here. (Cafe Utne is one example, as is Echo).

As is Table Talk, birthplace of the Buffistas.

Tho I admit I don't think the troll-coddling problem is as large as Allyson and Kat percieve it to be.

In fact, it's only made it so now we have this monster process in place and it doesn't stop the emotional thrash.

Yes, this. Warn Warn Ban. It sounds so easy and cut and dry.

What this means in Buffistatime is

Discuss warning for three days. Marginalize the feeling of 12 Buffistas.

Discuss the second warning for 4 more days. Three Buffistas vow to never return to Bureaucracy.

Discuss banning for 14 days. Take a vote. Alienate 22 Buffistas.

Was bullshit consensus ever this volatile, pedantic, and divisive, or am I idealizing the past?

Tho I admit I don't think the troll-coddling problem is as large as Allyson and Kat percieve it to be.

Troll-coddling is a symptom of the larger problem, as *I* see it, which is decision making by fillibuster.

i.e., let's make this process as bloated and confusing as possible, so that it becomes almost impossible to take part in community decision-making. We can't all agree, so we agree to do nothing, or to do something that will satisfy all people, which is close to doing nothing.

I want a Tim thread. We cannot discuss my wanting this thread for two weeks. Then we will have to discuss my wanting the thread for a week, vote on it for a week, and then not discuss it again for six months. It seems absurd. It's a thread.

I don't think the troll problem has been that large, period. Which may be the point. What if we had 3 miskies and 4 Zoe's and god knows what other species of troll at the same time? I think that's the fear Allyson and Kat are expressing: If there is X amount of hand-wringing for one troll, how exponentially will it become if there were multiple occurences at one time.

However, I also think that SOME of the excessive hand-wringing was becuase this was the first time these things had occurred here. I'm not sure it would happen again. I realize Zoe stirred up as much kerfuffle as mieskie, if not more, but I also think they were very different cases. While there may be yet another troll-type that shows up in the future, are their THAT many varieties?

And Kat, I didn't mean to suggest I thought Buffistas would become TWOP, I was just thinking of it as what I considered to be an especially egregious example of a moderated board.

I realize I seem to be going back and forth on this, but this is the first time I've grasped a more concrete understanding of this side of the argument (rather than at a more theoretical level).

I'm not bothered by the troll problem. Trolls happen. It's the internet, it's open.

I am exhausted (at the best of times) at the length of discussion engendered by what I'd consider an obvious troll. However, I do hope the new "strike" structure in place means a whole lot less of that.

Was bullshit consensus ever this volatile, pedantic, and divisive, or am I idealizing the past?

Given that the two bannings we've had to deal with were instituted under a bullshit consensus, I'd say yeah, you're idealizing the past.

We have a very specific process in place right now for the warn-suspend-ban (it's not warn-warn-ban). This process does not involve a vote. Each step requires only that a certain number of buffistas ask for it. The process was not in place during the previous kerfuffles; it was set up in response to them.

The solution is to move to a situation where there are clear rules and people to enforce them. This community enforcing it doesn't work when people are so conflict-averse.

I think the circular discussions we end up having are damaging to the community, stirring up a lot of very bad feelings.

Yes to both of these points. I agree with ita that, although I really wanted to erase Z and m from my computer screen every time they posted, they weren't the biggest problem. The needlessly painful discussion about whether or not to even warn them was what broke me.

In theory, we can deal with trolls, but the problem is, not all of us agree right now that trolls are something that needs to be dealt with. Or perhaps it is truer to say we don't all agree on what constitutes a troll.

So, Jon, what is the number of Buffistas that need to complain to dish out a warning?

One to request an action. 10 others to second. The details are here: ita "Voting Discussion: We're Screwing In Light Bulbs AIFG!" Apr 19, 2003 12:09:12 am EDT