Yes, Allyson, that was what I was trying to ask. And I think the question is one that goes to heart of "What are the Buffistas?", which makes me realize it's more of a general question, and not one that should necessarily be aimed at any one poster. I guess I asked you because of all the water under the bridge with regards to fandom. I DO tend to agree with your comments on convergence of board etiquette, social interaction and tolerance of suspected trolls. That said, I think the constant hand-wringing on issues around here is a good thing, as things seem to get resolved eventually, and in a positive way. And I still feel my point isn't clear. It's not that I'm necessarily trying to spare feelings - I'm just of several minds on the subject and not expressing things in a way I'm happy with right now, so I'm trying to err on the side of not posting.

And I may just be re-wording myself into further incoherence. Damn, I hate upcoming Mondays.

That said, I think the constant hand-wringing on issues around here is a good thing, as things seem to get resolved eventually, and in a positive way.

I totally disagree. I can't disagree more strongly. The hand wringing about Z, where I was immediately told I was "Out of Line" and then later called "Orwellian" was not a positive experience for me. In fact, that level of "hand-wringing" has made me really distrustful, uncomfortable, and pissed. Which, in all honesty, stems from being hurt. Because the "hand-wringing" did look like people saying things like "out of line" didn't give a shit about all of the other people who were upset by the poster's behavior. (and for the sake of saving on my therapy bills, means that my feelings were hurt because I felt like those people who did wring their hands basically said, "FUCK YOU!" to what I felt).

In other words, that my feelings were invalidated and I was basically told I was overreacting.

Hence, not so much with the positive outcome for me.

In other words, that my feelings were invalidated and I was basically told I was overreacting.

In all fairness (and recall I agree with you on the Z issue and posted as much) the people on the other side of the fence felt that their feelings were invalidated, too.

Sure, Elena. Of course they did! Hence the idea that it is hand wringing and pretty unsatsifactory on all sides. I'm not speaking for Connie or Trudy. I'm speaking for me. From my experience.

My argument is not "Oh Woe is Me!" Rather it's that the hand wringing doesn't seem to have such positive outcomes.

Kat (and I'm guessing Allyson), I definitely see your point on the hand-wringing effect giving trolls not just equal but more than equal rights. Which seems to me the essence of trolldom - taking advantage.

I just don't see a better way to handle things. I mean, TWOP, for the brief time I wandered around the threads there made my hackles raise for the way that it was run. And I've seen some confrontations around here get to a point where, while I didn't think anyone was indulding in trollish behavior, someone on one side or the other could (or both) could have gotten stomped in a less tolerant environment.

Weird non-sequitar - An image of Sean Bean saying "They've got a net troll" just flashed in my mind.

Ken, this is my last post on this because I don't want to spend any more emotional energy. If I declare it's my last post, then usually it will keep me not posting which is Of The Good.

I boggle that people think that any moderation (or at least any non-whole-community enforcement of rules) means that the Buffistas would become TWOP. TWOP is one model of a posting board that has moderation. They moderate pretty heavily and have very strict guidelines.

There are so many other online communities that moderate and that have a similar level of discourse and respect as here. (Cafe Utne is one example, as is Echo). How community rules get enforced is at the root of our problems and I share a sense of hopelessness that voting will solve that. Because it hasn't yet. In fact, it's only made it so now we have this monster process in place and it doesn't stop the emotional thrash.

There are so many other online communities that moderate and that have a similar level of discourse and respect as here. (Cafe Utne is one example, as is Echo).

As is Table Talk, birthplace of the Buffistas.

Tho I admit I don't think the troll-coddling problem is as large as Allyson and Kat percieve it to be.

In fact, it's only made it so now we have this monster process in place and it doesn't stop the emotional thrash.

Yes, this. Warn Warn Ban. It sounds so easy and cut and dry.

What this means in Buffistatime is

Discuss warning for three days. Marginalize the feeling of 12 Buffistas.

Discuss the second warning for 4 more days. Three Buffistas vow to never return to Bureaucracy.

Discuss banning for 14 days. Take a vote. Alienate 22 Buffistas.

Was bullshit consensus ever this volatile, pedantic, and divisive, or am I idealizing the past?

Tho I admit I don't think the troll-coddling problem is as large as Allyson and Kat percieve it to be.

Troll-coddling is a symptom of the larger problem, as *I* see it, which is decision making by fillibuster.

i.e., let's make this process as bloated and confusing as possible, so that it becomes almost impossible to take part in community decision-making. We can't all agree, so we agree to do nothing, or to do something that will satisfy all people, which is close to doing nothing.

I want a Tim thread. We cannot discuss my wanting this thread for two weeks. Then we will have to discuss my wanting the thread for a week, vote on it for a week, and then not discuss it again for six months. It seems absurd. It's a thread.

I don't think the troll problem has been that large, period. Which may be the point. What if we had 3 miskies and 4 Zoe's and god knows what other species of troll at the same time? I think that's the fear Allyson and Kat are expressing: If there is X amount of hand-wringing for one troll, how exponentially will it become if there were multiple occurences at one time.

However, I also think that SOME of the excessive hand-wringing was becuase this was the first time these things had occurred here. I'm not sure it would happen again. I realize Zoe stirred up as much kerfuffle as mieskie, if not more, but I also think they were very different cases. While there may be yet another troll-type that shows up in the future, are their THAT many varieties?

And Kat, I didn't mean to suggest I thought Buffistas would become TWOP, I was just thinking of it as what I considered to be an especially egregious example of a moderated board.

I realize I seem to be going back and forth on this, but this is the first time I've grasped a more concrete understanding of this side of the argument (rather than at a more theoretical level).

I'm not bothered by the troll problem. Trolls happen. It's the internet, it's open.

I am exhausted (at the best of times) at the length of discussion engendered by what I'd consider an obvious troll. However, I do hope the new "strike" structure in place means a whole lot less of that.