I don't want to force people to tell their stories if they don't feel comfortable doing so, but OTOH -- and I feel uncomfortable even saying this much -- it feels weird to be considering banning someone without anything more recent than the super-shitty episode with Jess. I don't want to turn it into a pile-on, or make people feel pressured to share, but, well, the very few times people have gotten banned before it's been after something clear and obvious and unambiguous.

I put a whole lot of trust in the bad feelings of so many people whom I value deeply, and whose absence from here I have mourned, and I want you feeling safe to come back; I just wish this weren't so murky.

And now I more than halfway regret even saying this. There are no good options.

I'm reading this thread and was weighing whether or not to say anything outside of heartfelt expressions of support, but at the same time, I'm likely one of the few people who've had any sort of prolonged day-to-day interaction with him (from the two-week Taos workshop last year). And while he never *did* anything specifically to me (about which I have my own theories which I'm happy to share privately) other than be a bit of an ass professionally, what I can say with certainty is that nothing I'm hearing is really coming as any sort of surprise.

To see them collectively expressed, both here and elsewhere, is...overwhelming.

I get that too, JZ, and I feel somewhat similarly. Though I don't find it hard to believe that he's made people uncomfortable, or even harassed them (as Jessica's account illustrates), I also don't feel great about banning someone based mostly on second-hand reports of backchannel interactions. But of course, as erika pointed out, that's where this kind of thing thrives, and I don't want anyone to feel obligated to provide a write-up of something shitty that happened to them, when they might have their own very good reasons for wanting to keep quiet or forget about it.

In conclusion: ugh.

And now I more than halfway regret even saying this. There are no good options.

...and I feel the same way too now. Because really, I do think it should be the default to believe people who report harassment. And knowing that people have left the board because of his actions is a huge problem that deserves to be addressed.

About ten years ago, he told a story in Natter (or maybe Bitches) about following a woman through an airport, and then not long after, after people told him that he shouldn't do that, told another story about following a woman through a supermarket. I've never understood why so many people seemed to accept him after that.

That was one of the straws that pushed me away from here for so long.

Why a consensus rather than a vote?

So far all I have found on banning is this:

Consistent demon-like behavior may earn a warning from the Stompy Feet. If you don't listen to the warning, you will be suspended for two months. And if you come back unreformed, you will be banned. Banning is rare and very much a last resort.

I think the difference is that we were mostly talking about behavior on the board, not for stuff that did not occur here. Mieskie went through the whole cycle. The closest we got to what we're talking about here was when Zoe was banned, because she was both being erratic on the board and sending really creepy e-mails to the administrators.

Here I think we need to vote on it because a) we're skipping the warning and suspension steps of our procedure, and b) the bad behavior didn't happen here. I think people need to look at the twitter stuff, and hear from people such as Jess who've been harassed, and from Sunil if he chooses to defend himself, and then make up their minds and vote.

Thank you for coming in and posting, I was hoping you would.

I'm glad Jessica shared her story. Even though it's upsetting, it's better to know the specifics.

I don't think there's anything in the Twitter links that really makes the case or is even easy to follow or understand.

I don't think it's fair to refer to a pattern of behavior without listing the specific events that make the pattern.

So, this hasn't been the most transparent process.

On the flipside, besides Jessica, I know two other people who have left or limited their activity on the board specifically because of Sunil's presence and issues they've had with him. At least one other person who has blocked Sunil on all social media including MARCIE on the board. And at least a couple other people who have cut off contact with him in real life.

That's a pretty big negative footprint for one person to have in our community.

About ten years ago, he told a story in Natter (or maybe Bitches) about following a woman through an airport, and then not long after, after people told him that he shouldn't do that, told another story about following a woman through a supermarket. I've never understood why so many people seemed to accept him after that.

I remember that, too. I remember going over to LiveJournal to backchannel about it, because it upset me, a lot. When we told him that he shouldn't do that, he posted that he was crying and felt really bad about what he'd done, and people comforted him and told him that he was learning what it meant to be a good guy in a world full of bad guys.

and it is 10 years later and....

Drag Me to Patel â€@ghostwritingcow 2h2 hours ago I believe that I have caused women emotional harm and I am deeply sorry. I truly wish to understand my behavior and change it, stop hurting.

he wishes to understand his behavior and change it.

Thank you, DXM and Barb.