I wandered in here in late 2002. I was a little ahead of the big influx, but I got here through Firefly. It's a little fuzzy, but I think I heard of you as part of the Save Firefly campaign. I read the Bronze, but the format annoyed me.

I just want to be listened to in a way I don't feel I have been.

I wonder if we could continue this discussion in Bureaucracy, since (a) Light Bulbs is about to close, and (2) Light Bulbs is really supposed to just be discussion about the specific thread proposed (not that Buffistae have ever been good at sticking to just one topic....look! Something shiny!).

I wonder if we could continue this discussion in Bureaucracy,

I would like to. There's pain, and I want it to stop. I feel pain, caused by people I love, and it seems I have hurt people I love in return.

Not good.

However, when those of us who want these threads mention that *not* having them is destructive to board culture for us, those opposed tell us we're being emotional, or that we're not engaging fairly, or that they just plain disagree with us.

That is what seems (from my side) to be very unfair, and part of what I think triggers such wildly emotional arguments.

Sean, this is where my conflict with you lies. I posit that it is totally fair to just plain disagree with you. I do think that resorting to snide language (i.e., expressing emotion inappropriately) is unfair; and I do agree that refusing to debate honestly is unfair; but that last in your list of three is not unfair under any definition I can work out.

How then are we ever to convince her or you or anybody that the fragmented state already exists if our experience of the board is dismissed out of hand?

It's possible you'll never convince me of your position. And that's okay, isn't it? I clearly can't convince you of mine! But I respect that you have it, and would like an equal amount of respect in return. Calling me unfair or spiteful does not feel like respect.

I posit that it is totally fair to just plain disagree with you. I do think that resorting to snide language (i.e., expressing emotion inappropriately) is unfair; and I do agree that refusing to debate honestly is unfair; but that last in your list of three is not unfair under any definition I can work out.

Nuty, when you tell me you just plain disagree with what is my direct personal experience of the board, what am I to do?

It's like you saying you just plain disagree with me when I say the sky is blue. How am I supposed to work with that? How am I not supposed to take that personally?

Many people during this discussion (and other discussions) have said they feel this thread and threads like it will destroy they board culture they love.

Please point me to the post where someone said "A gaming thread will destroy board culture." What I have said is that thread creation in general has this potential, and that every new thread proposal is worth examining in this light.

How then are we ever to convince her or you or anybody that the fragmented state already exists if our experience of the board is dismissed out of hand?

Er, right back atcha. Nobody is about to say "Oh, sorry, I just realized that my board experience is wrongheaded and invalid because it differs from yours. My bad!" so we may as well all stop waiting for it.

Calling me unfair or spiteful does not feel like respect.

Telling me my direct personal experience of the board is not valid (which is what you are, in fact, saying when you "just plain disagree with it") does not feel like respect either.

It's like you saying you just plain disagree with me when I say the sky is blue. How am I supposed to work with that? How am I not supposed to take that personally?

This isn't an appropriate analogy. It's more like you saying that cilantro tastes awesome. I can just plain disagree with you on that one, can't I? You have an experience, and I have an experience, and I am totally within my rights to say, "You may think that's so universally, but that's not how it is for me."

In fact, we've had that discussion a bunch of times! And people have only ever told each other "Your taste buds are meanies" in jest.

How then are we ever to convince her or you or anybody that the fragmented state already exists if our experience of the board is dismissed out of hand?

Er, right back atcha. Nobody is about to say "Oh, sorry, I just realized that my board experience is wrongheaded and invalid because it differs from yours. My bad!" so we may as well all stop waiting for it.

Do I have to name names of people who make me feel like slinking off into a dark corner whenever they show up before you'll believe me that there are already fragmented subcultures to the board?

I am fragmented from others on this board. Therefore a fragmented state already exists.

As best I can understand, you are saying "No, the board is not fragmented." I don't understand, Jess.

Telling me my direct personal experience of the board is not valid (which is what you are, in fact, saying when you "just plain disagree with it") does not feel like respect either.

Not Nutty, but I don't get this is what she's saying at all. She's saying she disagrees because that's not her experience of the board. She's *not* saying your experience isn't valid, she's simply saying it isn't hers.

Something's breaking down here, and I don't get it. I tell my *husband* all the time that I don't agree with him, and it does *not* mean I don't love him or value him, it just means that there are some points we're never going to agree on.