What billytea said.

---

It made sense to me. Do I count?

Some people have said so, but I reckon you're just highly attuned to your owner and use his subtle body language cues to know when to stop tapping your hoof.

Quick! Someone Turing Test that Indian!

---

I don't understand why this is the only valid method of thread creation, especially when that doesn't actually seem to be true in practice.

I'm not sure it's the only valid method, but it's the one I trust most.

They already exist. New threads will not prevent them. A halt to new threads will not unfracture them.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't agree with you.

But if this is not all about me, which I don't believe it is, Nutty, then it's not all about you, either.

How I vote is not about you. It is very much about me, though, right? I mean, the community, but me within the community, right? I have a right to vote my own conscience. Even if my own conscience leads me someplace different from the pro-gaming stance.

And forcing everyone else to use only general, non-narrow topic threads is just as fragmenting and unhealthy to the community.

I'm sorry you feel this way, too. I don't agree with you on this one, either.

My point is, you have a legitimate perspective, in wanting a gaming thread. I don't deny that your desire is real, and I don't deny your arguments make sense (except I still don't understand how a gaming thread would foster community, although Billytea's addition helps on that front). All I ask is that my perspective be considered legitimate too, that my desires be valued, that my arguments be evaluated on their merits.

It is totally possible for two completely reasonable people to come to opposite conclusions about the same set of facts. Sean, when you've been arguing with me, especially when you use words like "spite", I don't feel like you are allowing the possibility that I might be a reasonable person, just like you, who just happens to disagree with you completely. I like to think I've honored your perspective this evening (although see above re the part I don't understand); but I don't feel like my perspective has been honored in return.

It made sense to me. Do I count?

Of course you count, P-C. You and Billytea are the only other people awake on the whole board.

---

All I ask is that my perspective be considered legitimate too, that my desires be valued, that my arguments be evaluated on their merits.

I'm really not sure how to do that when your only response to my arguments is to condescend to me and dismiss me out of hand.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't agree with you.

I mean, you haven't really presented a counter argument there, Nutty. It would be a lot easier to engage you as someone who "just completely disagrees with me" if you offered more than "I just completely disagree with you" to work with.

---

Actually, truth be told, I feel like you, Nutty, have been repeatedly condescending to me, so when you protest that you have engaged me fairly, I'm not really sure what to make of that.

---

So, you feel you've been condescended to -- although, I hope you understand that's not what I'm trying to do -- and I feel I've been insulted and my integrity impugned -- though I think that's not what you're trying to do. And we're back at square one.

Since it is four in the morning my time, I am going to bed.

---

Okay, fair enough.

Sweet dreams, Nutty. And peace.

---

You and Billytea are the only other people awake on the whole board.

I'm awake, but nothing really to add on this argument. Seems folks have got hot under the collar debating.. well, not sure, debating debating. And have strayed from the conversation a bit. I forget who said it up thread, but maybe a list of criteria to fulfill in order to propose creating a thread.

---

And forcing everyone else to use only general, non-narrow topic threads is just as fragmenting and unhealthy to the community.

I'm sorry you feel this way, too. I don't agree with you on this one, either.

I'm not Sean, but as I've posted more than once, my personal experience has been that the general threads have been a very fragmenting experience for me. The threads that I have the most consistent participation in are the slower moving narrowly focused threads. Technology is one of those threads for me, I never miss a post in there, and I actually catch people in there on a regular basis that I wouldn't bump into otherwise. For the past, well, at least 3 or 4 years, I've been very sporadic in Natter and Bitches. I just can't keep up, and as a result I have a hard time following conversations.

Here's one of my big reasons for a more dedicated thread for gaming. I know that some of the most likely people to post in there, myself, Sean, MM, CaBil, BillyTea, Raq, just a new a few, are scattered in multiple timezones. In a slow moving and focused thread a conversation can happen with hours between the posts. It's easy to come in, and read the half dozen posts from earlier in the day and pick up the line and continue. When those posts are within a faster moving stream, there's a very good chance that one of the participants won't even read them. Six lines of conversation with 30 unrelated posts splitting them up makes things very hard to follow. Quite often the only time I know that I've been asked for or mentioned in a conversation in a faster moving thread is because someone will catch me in IM and send me a link so that I go and look. Other times I'll cath it a week later if I happen to do a threadsuck and search for "ND" or "Drew" otherwise it's lost. This is fragmenting for me. I don't feel like I can ever really be part of the conversation. Occasionally I can come in and be part of it for a few minutes, but then I get pulled away and it's gone. I long for a few threads where I can keep up. Where I can come in at the end of a long day and read 20 messages and be caught up and actually be part of the conversation and the community. That doesn't happen for me on the board very often. I've felt disconnected for years now. This board has been the source of some of my very close friendships, and it's where I found the love of my life. It saddens me that I now feel distant from it.

---

And forcing everyone else to use only general, non-narrow topic threads is just as fragmenting and unhealthy to the community.

as making creation of threads somewhat tiresome and difficult is fragmenting and unhealthy, you mean? Again, no provocation intended. I'm honestly trying to understand your position.

Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt above, by the way. I asked clumsily, but my question was sincere. I'll try to restate it. As I understand you, you believe thread creation (in general. I expect you recognize the application of what you're asking *for the gaming thread* would be made to all threads proposed in the future) should be a simpler process. You disagreed when I guessed you were suggesting that any member should be able to create a thread on any topic at any time, whether there was other interest or traffic in that topic or not. But you haven't outlined what you do believe would be a fair and simple process, one that would work for this board and its members.

Would you have any controls on what threads are created? If so, who could create threads, and on what topics? Would every board member be given a number of thread creation opportunities, possibly in exchange for paying annual dues to keep the board running, or would there be no such limit? Would we want anyone to oversee the creation process, if we don't allow at-will creation? By oversee I mean deny creation of a thread for which a similar one already exists, suggest in what folder a thread should go so it can more easily be found, and monitor threads that have had no activity for a certain period and might be ready for closure. Would we expect volunteers to staff that position, or would we want to hire someone in that capacity, given that the thread load will increase by a lot?

What would happen if obstructionists like me back off and simply stop arguing and objecting? What sort of narrow-focus threads do you expect to be created, and how many of them? Are you saying this is what you'd like to see? And do you believe this system would be more pleasant and better than what we have now? Honest questions, I'm not arguing, I want to understand your position, to think it through and decide where it has merit and how we might implement it, if enough people agree that the process needs to change.

From my perspective, I do expect discussion and justification for thread creation, even if I don't *enjoy* the discussion. I believe the process should take effort and commitment, and creation of a new thread should be won. It has more value, I think, if it's won. But I could be wrong. I'm often wrong. This wouldn't be the first time.

I really hope I've asked my questions in a non-provocative, non-inflammatory way. I sincerely want to hear what you envision as the right way for the board to create, maintain, and run threads. I want to study your ideas and see if there are some points of compromise, where we can both have a board that works for us. I think we may need a compromise.

---