I considered it. I viewed the ongoing discussion on the topic as consideration. How are you defining the term?

In context. You said the two items were considered. The natural inference was that they were therefore moot. Done. Disposed of. I'm not sure how else you could have meant it. If I misconstrued your meaning, and you really only meant to say that you yourself had considered them, I apologize. Although I fail to see how the fact that you considered them addresses my points in any way.

I just don't see your logical fallacy. Could you dumb it down a bit for me?

I'm standing 10 feet from a cliff. I drop my canteen. It's now lying 9 feet from the cliff. I decide to forego picking it up because it would bring me one foot closer to the cliff. I neglect to consider that I am not likely to go over the cliff just because I'm one step closer to it.

OK, this is addressing Wolfram's stuff and not Allyson's proposal, but I'm going to post it anyway.

I am almost positive that the discussion of this issue in Bureaucracy started with "I don't know if we need to vote on this..." or at least hit that question pretty early. I am also pretty sure that at some point some discussions that started out with "do we need to vote on this?" ended with "no, let's just consense and go and do" whatever.

I'd go and look, but that's too much like actually doing work.

Anyway, my point is that we have that informal method at hand and have been using it. Do we really need to formalize that in some way?

You said the two items were considered. The natural inference was that they were therefore moot. Done. Disposed of. I'm not sure how else you could have meant it.

They were brought up and discussed. How do you define considered?

I drop my canteen. It's now lying 9 feet from the cliff. I decide to forego picking it up because it would bring me one foot closer to the cliff. I neglect to consider that I am not likely to go over the cliff just because I'm one step closer to it.

I guess where we diverge is in the modelling of the scenario. Your metaphor has nothing to do with what I see before us.

I really do think, though, that this branch of the discussion doesn't belong here--it belongs in Bureaucracy, since it's about something bigger than a show of support for the WGA.

I am also pretty sure that at some point some discussions that started out with "do we need to vote on this?" ended with "no, let's just consense and go and do" whatever.

Yep. Reopening the book club thread for Harry Potter talk.

They were brought up and discussed. How do you define considered?

You asked me this already. I knew they were discussed. I'm not trying to be flip, but what were you trying to say when you told me they were considered?

I really do think, though, that this branch of the discussion doesn't belong here--it belongs in Bureaucracy, since it's about something bigger than a show of support for the WGA.

It was born from the current discussion. When thread proposals (d)evolve into discussions of thread sprawl and who-we-are-ness we don't kick those discussions back to Bureaucracy. But feel free to move it whereever you like.

When thread proposals (d)evolve into discussions of thread sprawl and who-we-are-ness we don't kick those discussions back to Bureaucracy. But feel free to move it whereever you like.

The reason I'd want it in B'cracy is so that people who don't care about the WGA strike know it's going on and so it's not overshadowed by the actual topic here.

As for other part, I'm going to have to let it go because I scrolled back and still don't see a definition of "consider". It's a semantics issue at this point and I don't have the energy for it.

I have to chime in a little, and sort of support what ND was sort of saying:

I support the writers, but even more than that, I'm against the producers.

However, even more important than either of those things, I support my own pocket book. I've been doing very well for myself work wise lately, but I'm very scared right now, and if the strike continues, I'm very concerned about where I'm going to be financially in three to six months.

There are other people out there who are in that same boat, or much much worse. And there's a lot more of us than there are striking writers right now.

Which brings me back to -- I support the writers in this matter, to the extent that I don't support the producers in all this.

I guess this is a long winded, twisty way of saying that, while I very much support the writers, if this strike lasts at all, there's a lot of people, including me, that are going to be hurt badly by this strike.

Not that I know of any way to show that with our collective support, or that it matters beyond my own financial interests, or that it really relates to this discussion at all, except that again, I think Wolfram's vision of unanimity on this issue, and thus the need to truncate this process, is not as unanimous as one might think.

Which brings me to my final point -- it was essentially mistaken assumptions of unanimity that brought about voting in the first place. Actual unanimity does not nullify that. And I strongly disagree that we should make any changes to our procedure because actual unanimity happens once.

There's an argument that doesn't deal with slippery slopes.

it was essentially mistaken assumptions of unanimity that brought about voting in the first place. Actual unanimity does not nullify that.

Are you sure you're not one-a them writers?

Sean, first off I hesitate to even engage you and ND on the issues in this strike because you guys are the ones who may really suffer economic harm. So while I support the writers and feel the producers are asshats, my real damages are going to be a lack of good television and movies for awhile. For your sake (and the sake of our Buffista writers), I hope this strike is short and fruitful.

I think Wolfram's vision of unanimity on this issue, and thus the need to truncate this process, is not as unanimous as one might think.

Clearly. Although neither you, Connie or ND have said you do not support the writers. But you have said that you don't necessarily support the signage.

And I strongly disagree that we should make any changes to our procedure because actual unanimity happens once.

Can you construct an argument against adding, to our rules, a truncated voting method for urgent issues, without resorting to slippery slopes?

You don't have to, because I'm not going to propose it anymore. It's not going to happen so I see no reason to re-hash the arguments we've had here.

Sean, first off I hesitate to even engage you and ND on the issues in this strike because you guys are the ones who may really suffer economic harm.

Like ND, I'm hesitant to bring these issues to the discussion, because they probably only muddy the issue, and as you point out, we're still in support of the strike, more or less.

I guess I just didn't want the financial difficulties that are caused by this to be lost on fandom, at least this part of fandom that I'm close to. And hell, we have members who are actually on strike, so they have financial issues too.

Can you construct an argument against adding, to our rules, a truncated voting method for urgent issues, without resorting to slippery slopes?

I'm not sure I can do better than I did in my previous post, specifically that it was false unanimity that brought about voting in the first place, and I'm sure how actual unanimity necessitates a trucated process, or avoids the dangers of false unanimity.

You don't have to, because I'm not going to propose it anymore. It's not going to happen so I see no reason to re-hash the arguments we've had here.

Well, as far as that goes, I very strongly believe that certain failure is a poor reason to not bring something up in the first place. If you still feel that "emergency procedures" are needed, no matter how many people disagree with you, I would support you bringing it up. I'd even second you in the hopes of getting it to a discussion and vote, even if I ultimately vote against it, or that it seems certain of failure. Especially if you can construct your proposal in such a way that the new process can successfully detect and account for dissent.

I guess my main reason for being opposed to your idea is that the main reason for the lengths of the windows of both discussion and voting is to ensure that all who wish to input on a subject get the opportunity to do so, and I just don't see a way around that, regardless of urgency or certain unanimity. everybody should still get their say, and shortening the process only prevents that.

Unless you can come up with a way around that problem. And as I said, please don't let massive opposition to the idea stop you from trying.