Thanks Dana, forgot about that :)

Using Buffy/Angel as an example is not really a good idea. Buffy/Angel is closer to our sort of charter, the preamble to our constitution. It's self-evident.

Minearverse would be a better example to use, I think.

I had a similar reaction that I am still struggling to verbalize. It feels like, at various points in this discussion, a distinction is being drawn between the Firefly thread denizens and Buffistas. I know the sets are by no means identical but the us-and-them-ness bothers me. Even though I'm not completely sure it isn't all in my head.

Using Buffy/Angel as an example is not really a good idea. Buffy/Angel is closer to our sort of charter, the preamble to our constitution. It's self-evident.

I'm having a really difficult time understanding why the Firefly concept should not have the same status here as Buffy/Angel and why it keeps getting referred to as an under-used show thread rather than a culture that should be considered part of Buffistas.org. Why Firefly keeps getting compared to other show threads like Smallville, or sub-communities like Minearverse, or hypothetical threads that will eventually need to be closed, but not to Buffy/Angel - well, I just don't get it.

So I went back through the archives to see how Firefly had been treated in the beginning. Obviously, there was a lot of excitement because it was the first Joss Whedon show to premiere after Buffy/Angel. The board opened up a Firefly thread. (I believe there was some discussion in TT about Firefly, but by the time Phoenix arose there was none.) Two weeks later a Quotables Firefly thread was opened as well. It had become accepted that Firefly had the same status as Buffy/Angel. No other show has had a Quotables thread.

Joss Whedon posted about the Firefly cancellation here. It is not irrelevant that a significant wave joined up following the (in)famous joss posting. This means that a) joss saw this board as a significant Firefly board; b) the media saw this board as a significant Firefly board; and c) many of the people who joined following the posting saw this board as a significant Firefly board. Whatever the Phoenix board was originally intended to be, Firefly was now inextricably linked with it.

Of further signficance was the changing of the slug, which still reads, ""A community dedicated to discussions of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel and Firefly with humor, intelligence and obsessiveness." Certainly a person coming to the board could make the reasonable assumption that Firefly is an integral part of Buffistas.org. I know I did.

Further, the community put Firefly quotes in the Buffistas.org quote generator. Once again, not a single person made a single objection to including Firefly quotes - and at that time nobody was shy about expressing any discomfort in Beauracracy.

Look at the FAQ. Still starts off with, " Warning: This FAQ may contain spoilers up to and including the full run of Buffy, Firefly the Series and Angel 4.22." and later on, " Q. Where can I get Buffy, Angel and Firefly on DVD?" Followed by Amazon links to Buffy, Angel and Firefly.

Firefly quotes were even discussed for deathmatching - again something only done with Buffy and Angel. But at the time the movie was coming out so it was felt that waiting was a better option.

You say Buffy/Angel are part of the original charter? Then Firefly has been amended into the bylaws.

I guess I see a lot of it's-just-another-dead-show-threadness going round in this discussion, and I just can't understand it. For me, and others who have posted quite emotionally here, the Firefly thread is not just a show thread. It's part of why we became buffistas.

I realize the above was a mouthful, so I want to say also that if the board closes the thread that's okay by me. It's not going to change my feelings for anyone here. It's not going to change my life, and I, as I'm sure all of you, have much more pressing things going on. Like every other issue I've argued for or against in B-crazy or Lightbulbs, this too shall pass. I don't mean this as condescending. I just mean to say that I've grown up some and no longer feel like it's my way or it's the wrong way. I bow to the will of the voters.

I'm having a really difficult time understanding why the Firefly concept should not have the same status here as Buffy/Angel

I don't want to sound even more us-and-themmy, but are there many people here who were around pre-Firefly who have a difficult time with it? I can't work out how to explain it, partially because I feel it's so true.

I consider myself, FWIW, a denizen of the Firefly thread. It's one of my subscriptions, and I read every post within short order of it appearing. So any divide has to have me on both sides.

for me, there is no Buffy/Angel there is only Buffy/Angel/Firefly. This probably has a lot to do with the fact that I watched Firefly first.

are there many people here who were around pre-Firefly who have a difficult time with it?

I don't. I used to subscribe to the thread when there was still new content being created and continued to subscribe for about a year afterwards. Then, I unsubbed because I wasn't getting anything out of it anymore.

I do still sub to the Buffy/Angel thread, however.

So any divide has to have me on both sides.

If it wasn't clear before, I don't think there is an Us vs. Them component here. Just the natural division of every vote: for, against and no pref. And we all have our own reasons for being in each camp.

There are some trends though. Like you point out, ita, pre-Firefly people may see Firefly's inclusion in board culture differently than post-Firefly people. Firefly denizens may have emotional reasons to vote yes or no. The thread liferationists (Pro and Anti) may vote for other reasons.

Possibly offensive but well-intentioned joke - deleted.

are there many people here who were around pre-Firefly who have a difficult time with it? I can't work out how to explain it, partially because I feel it's so true.

Buffy is the reason we exist. Firefly isn't. People come to this board for all kinds of reasons, and Firefly is obviously pretty high on that list, but without Buffy there wouldn't be a community to join in the first place. To me, that makes a difference.

There was a fairly sizable jump in membership when Wonderfalls was on the air. Now the show is gone, and so are its threads. I see Firefly in that category.

[eta: And Wolfram, I know your whitefont is meant as a joke, but can we not go there? Please?]