It's not clear to me that a Book Club thread would solve the problems brought up in Literary.

Do you mean the anti-intellectual ones? I don't get the impression it's designed to be the Literary Panacea Thread.

Some people figure it will solve theirs, though.

What could be inserted (and I am just throwing the idea out there -- I have no strong opinion one way or another) is that the thread would automatically be closed unless it were reapproved with a vote of confidence after 6 months or a year.

That's an idea Jon, and admittedly, if it became a deal-breaker, I would probably support it. It makes me a little uncomfortable though, because we've not made other threads pass this test (have we?--correct me please, if I am misremembering). It also seems to me (I could be remembering my own emotional reactions, rather than actual history) that I don't hear much in way of the anti-proliferationist philosophy, when the proposed thread is one that personally interests the more hardline anti-proliferationists.

That said, if this sort of limit is going to be added to the proposal, I'd rather see it be a separate item on the ballot (cc: Wolfram). In other words, on the ballot we'd have a first item that asked for a yea or nay on the thread itself. Then there would be a second item on the same ballot, that asked if we should have a vote of confidence at X months (and separate items for any other stipulations like "the subcommunity argument will never be enough to keep this thread open, if it loses it's purpose, and turns into another segregated natter thread).

ita is right, and makes a very strong point when she says:

The idea of five people holding it near and dear and everyone else thinking it's not working isn't outrageous.

Threads build sub-communities. That makes them sticky.

We know that's true. And there are lots of threads that don't interest any given number of us, and often, that number might be greater than the number of regulars in a given thread, but we don't shut them down even though we could, because we all have our pets, and so we empathize, even when we don't personally see a thread as necessary.

I'd almost rather see what Buffistas think about a separate proposal that put all threads—or all new thread proposals—to this test, than see us apply it specifically (and randomly, imo) to this proposed thread, seeing as it isn't going to host a troll-magnet sort of topic. Almost. Almost. Almost.

Let me be more clear and stress my above "I'd almost rather see..." a bit more. I don't want to propose any of what I've mentioned, and am not proposing it. In fact, I am 95% against it. However, I am mentioning it, because it doesn't seem right to me somehow, to subject one thread to a test to which we haven't subjected the others, particularly since our cheesebuttalist document already provides for un-doing things. That we don't undo, does seem to support to some extent, Hec's assertion that:

I don't suppose folks would hold the thread near and dear if it wasn't working. And if it is working then its doing its job.

It seems to my memory that the anti-proliferation stance grew stronger (or at least more noticeable to me), when we added Music and Movie threads (and possibly the LotR film series thread). If Buffistas feel a need to more formally limit thread proliferation (it seems to me that it is well limited through non-official means, already), then I would rather see us address the proliferation issues separately and as a whole, rather than impose limits on a random thread, somewhat arbitrarily.

(And a part of me—5%—would rather see that, than have to slog through all the anti-proliferationist objections to every single thread proposal. But that's the part of me that would propose this, and I'm beating that part of me to death with a sledge hammer, as I type.)

Again—and I can't stress this enough—I'd rather we not take this step in any official way, either specific to this proposed thread, or to all threads, or to just new threads in general.

I can see the wisdom of building in a vote of confidence when proposed thread-focus (e.g. Politics/War/Election) is likely to attract trolls, but not so much for threads created for a typical topic of conversation.

I always feel like we get ourselves in a tizzy when we get too official about stuff. People generally understand the proliferation issues. It seems to me that there's some bullshit consensus about this, otherwise, wouldn't we see a lot more proposals around here, than we actually do? There are plenty of threads I'd propose, if I didn't share the anti-proliferation view to some extent.

I'm thinking that, at least for me, it would be very helpful to know several weeks or even a few months in advance so I'd have time to read.

Not to mention time to track the book down at a library or UBS if you're like me and money is an issue.

I'm for the new thread because I like the idea of a Buffista book club, but don't want it to crowd out the existing function of Literary. I'm interested in participating, but am hesitant to commit, both because I've never done a book club before and am not sure it would work with my readerly quirks, and because, really, I've got plenty on my plate as it is these days. But I'm interested.

That said, if this sort of limit is going to be added to the proposal, I'd rather see it be a separate item on the ballot (cc: Wolfram).

I actually thought about offering this first - even went so far as to type the separate item idea into the little box - but I figured that it may not be enough to satisfy many of the concerns experessed here if it's not part of the primary ballot.

I agree with all your points in theory (ita really zinged it with her standard anti-proliferation post), and it would be nice if the A-P issues could be dealt with all at once and separate from each thread proposal. I also agree that I think the community is very timid about proposing threads because of the A-P issues, but I think that's a good thing too or we'd be overrun with useless threads.

But, while I certainly don't love the idea of including an automatic closure clause in the ballot, as a practical matter I just want to see this thread given a shot, while making the greatest amount of Buffistas comfortable with its existence. And I think the automatic closure clause, though annoying to some, is ultimately harmless.

I'm interested in participating, but am hesitant to commit, both because I've never done a book club before and am not sure it would work with my readerly quirks, and because, really, I've got plenty on my plate as it is these days. But I'm interested.

FTR, Susan is me. I don't know if this thread is going to work at all, and even if it's going to work for me. But I'm itching to find out.

One thing I think would probably help a thread like this (and makes me salivate a bit at the prospect) would be to have somebody lead the discussions who knows the material particularly well. We wouldn't have to do this for everything, but I would love to do a section with Jen on Shakespeare's sonnets, or Hayden on Cormac McCarthy or JZ on G.K. Chesterton (off the top of my head).

Basically I'm for any thread that's going to foster substantive discussion, and I think this is a worthwhile experiement. I think we've got the resources to accomodate it too.

I actually thought about offering this first - even went so far as to type the separate item idea into the little box - but I figured that it may not be enough to satisfy many of the concerns experessed here if it's not part of the primary ballot.

How so? (I'm not playing devil's advocate--I really don't understand the distinction.) It seems to me that if it is the collective will of the Buffistas who choose to vote on this, will approve the thread only if it is limited, then enough people will vote yea on the limiting item.

I also agree that I think the community is very timid about proposing threads because of the A-P issues, but I think that's a good thing too or we'd be overrun with useless threads.

Yes, and yes, it is a good thing. We don't want to become something that isn't us (that makes sense in my brain). As much as I dread reading through the a-p argument each time, it has been a great deterrent to adding threads that wouldn't be a good fit for us, or for just adding them willy nilly. It serves its purpose.

But, while I certainly don't love the idea of including an automatic closure clause in the ballot, as a practical matter I just want to see this thread given a shot, while making the greatest amount of Buffistas comfortable with its existence. And I think the automatic closure clause, though annoying to some, is ultimately harmless.

I'm with you in spirit. This is why I said I'd vote for it, if it were a deal breaker. I'm just not sure it is. I guess that's why I think the limit issue should be on the same ballot, but as a separate item, rather than a clause of the main--to get a better picture of how a-p we want to be--officially, that is. We know a few vocal people are very a-p. We know a few vocal people are not a-p. We know a few vocal people are middle of the road wrt a-p. I guess I'd like a truer measure of this. However, ultimately, this is your baby, and I'll support you either way. And ultimately, the a-p issue is not why this thread is open right now, so I'll shut up about it.

I'm with you in itching to find out if we could make a go of the book club.

JZ on G.K. Chesterton

t salivates

I'd prefer not to put in an automatic time limit for this addition. Let it live or die like all the other threads. I do appreciate the A-P pressure, and I think it has made us choose carefully, or work to justify the existence of a thread. But I don't think we're never going to add another thread to the board. Couple years ago we had Buffy, Angel and Firefly all on the air and generating discussion. Now we don't have any of those, nor Wonderfalls, the LoTR movies are done. We didn't add a general TV thread. So, I'm thinking we can afford this addition.

And while it's not fun to close threads, we have done it when it's been necessary. If we get to place where resources require we tighten up, then let's decide at that time based upon which threads aren't getting used.

On the other hand, it is worth noting that one of the people who is consisently AP on EVERY proposal for a new thread is ita - who actually has to deal with proliferation consequences. So adding mandatory reconsideration this to ballot might not be such a bad idea. And it might be good idea not just for this thread, but for the future. That is going back and revisiting all existing threads that were passed without such a provision might be contentious, but if add this provision in this one - we might set an informal precedent. So there would be some pressure to include this provision in all future thread proposals - which might be a plus.

How so? (I'm not playing devil's advocate--I really don't understand the distinction.) It seems to me that if it is the collective will of the Buffistas who choose to vote on this, will approve the thread only if it is limited, then enough people will vote yea on the limiting item.

In my head it seemed like including the auto-close in the main ballot made the proposal more comfortable to people who object to it merely on A-P grounds since there'd be zero chance that a proposal without an auto-close would pass. Whereas making it two separate ballot choices means that there's a good chance the proposal will pass without any provisions for closing the thread. Also, people who object to it for other reasons including A-P grounds, may be less apt to vote against it if the A-P issue is deflated in the actual proposal. But again, this made sense in my head.

I honestly don't know what to do. It would help if I knew a lot of people who are against this thread would give it a shot provided it included an auto-close clause.

So there would be some pressure to include this provision in all future thread proposals - which might be a plus.

This would actually be my main reason not to include the provision. I don't want this thread to set precedent. If the community wants these provisions in every new proposal then, like Cindy said, it should be a separate proposal and vote.

I agree an auto-close provision could be a plus in every new thread, but it also could be a minus. And it's certainly a whole 'nother ballgame.

It also seems to me (I could be remembering my own emotional reactions, rather than actual history) that I don't hear much in way of the anti-proliferationist philosophy, when the proposed thread is one that personally interests the more hardline anti-proliferationists.

Speaking just for myself, I've pretty much given up arguing the anti-proliferationist line in here. If/When I want to commit the energy to it, I'll argue it on principle in B'cy, but in here, it seems to mostly fall on deaf ears, which makes it not worth my time.

On a slightly related note, after more thought, I do think that the Book Club could be integrated successfully with the existing Literary thread, in the same way that the drabbles work within GWW and the Foamies (used to) work within movies. The more I think about it, the more it feels like a project than a new thread.