Sooner or later, you're gonna want it. And the second — the second — that happens, you know I'll be there. I'll slip in, have myself a real good day.

Spike ,'Conversations with Dead People'


Voting Discussion: We're Screwing In Light Bulbs AIFG!  

We open it up, we talks the talk, we votes, we shuts it down. This thread is to free up Bureaucracy for daily details as we hammer out the Big Issues towards a vote. Open only when a proposal has been made and seconded according to Buffista policy (Which we voted on!). If this thread is closed, hie thee to Bureaucracy instead!


Jon B. - Aug 22, 2003 8:47:21 pm PDT #3338 of 10289
A turkey in every toilet -- only in America!

OK, here's a draft of summary arguments for and against the ballot items. For some items, I haven't seen any arguments against.For others, I'm not familiar enough with the particular threads to write anything coherent. Feel free to suggest additions or changes, but please keep them brief -- we don't want an essay -- just a few sentences at most.

Preamble: Eleven ballot questions?! WTF!?!
The last Buffy episode has been aired in the US, Canada, UK, Australia, New Zealand, etc., and some of our threads have become redundant. It's housecleaning time! To the extent possible, it's best to get this all out of the way now, before the US fall TV season begins. In addition, we recently learned that our current usage is overloading our server. We are working on coding changes to improve this, so there's no need to panic and implement draconian cuts, but removing redundancies on our board will help the situation.
[added the morning after]

1) Close Buffista Corp:
For: Very low traffic. No posts for nearly three months. I have seen no arguments against.

2) Close Buffy Quotable after Death Matches Finish:
For: With no new Buffy episodes, this can easily be folded into the regular Buffy thread. I have seen no arguments against.
[edited to clarify post-death-match]

3) Close Firefly Quotable:
For: There are only 12 episodes out there so this can easily be folded into the regular Firefly thread.
Against: 3 of those 12 episodes have not yet aired in the US. We should wait until sometime after the complete series is released on DVD in December before closing this thread.

4) Close Previously:
For: Old Buffy eps can now be discussed in the main Buffy thread. Old Angel eps can be discussed in the main Angel thread, in Natter, in Unamerican, or even in Buffy. In fact, historically, old episode discussions have always taken place over several different threads. Also, since only North Americans are getting Angel reruns, RestOfTheWorldistas may not feel the same pressing need to discuss them.
Against: With Angel starting up in syndication this Fall, it will be frustrating not to have a central place where old Angels can be discussed. The main Angel thread won't work -- Unamericans won't want to be spoiled on current episodes (whether or not they have to same pressing need for discussion, it's still unfair to exclude them). The other suggested threads all have other purposes. While it's true that discussions have historically taken place over several different threads, you could say the same about almost any topic of discussion. Most of it still takes place in Previously.
[edited to include Cindy's comments]

5) Change Previously Slug:
For: If item 4 fails to pass, then this follows logically. Old Buffy episodes can be discussed in the main Buffy thread since there's nothing new to discuss there anymore (sob). I have seen no arguments against.

6) Consolidate Due South, Smallville and Farscape:
For: These shows are all genre, pulp or HoYay shows. The threads have many of the same posters and/or posters with similar interests. Combining them would allow posters to respond to more posts in the same thread, rather than spreading their responses across two or three threads.
Against: Each has, to some extent, become a subcommunity. Those who watch one particular show do not want to wade through discussion of the other two to discuss their particular show. Those who have not yet seen one or more of the shows may not wish to be spoiled on show(s) they haven't seen. It is also feared it could become a general TV thread which could increase, rather than decrease, the overall thread traffic.
[Thanks Deena!]

7) Close Buffy Spoilers Lite:
For: No new Buffy episodes means no new spoilers! I have seen no arguments against.

8) Change Buffy/Angel Spoilers to Angel Spoilers:
For: No new Buffy episodes means no new spoilers! I have seen no arguments against.

9) Consolidate PPO, Bitchy Fic and Bitches' Anthology:
For: Fic of all stripes seems to be focusing in Bitchy Fic (see PPO) and the project for which Anthology was designed is currently waiting for people to spare attention for it.
Against: none seen, but the PPO folks may not want to lose their focus.
[Thanks Connie!]

10) Close F2F thread until planning for the next F2F:
For: This thread was intended to plan only our big annual F2F events. Small, regional events can be announced in Press and/or Natter with details worked out there or via email.
Against: For smaller events, it's hard to wade through Natter and email is inefficient.

11) Close Angel Spoilage Lite:
For: You can learn about casting and other "lite" spoilers by visiting TVguide.com (or other websites), emailing one of our known spoiler whores, or by writing in the main thread "I'd like a rumor confirmed. Can someone help me?" You can also jump to the end of the regular Spoilers thread to do this.
Against: Some people visit Spoilers Lite to read about casting spoilers they might not have otherwise known about. You can't ask a question about a spoiler if you don't know that the spoiler exists. The main thread has a very strict spoiler policy, while TVGuide.com (and other websites) often give away plot-points and other more "hardcore" spoilers. We should continue to have a central place to learn about non-plot-point-specific spoilers like casting news.
[edited to include Cindy's comments]


Sean K - Aug 22, 2003 9:06:24 pm PDT #3339 of 10289
You can't leave me to my own devices; my devices are Nap and Eat. -Zenkitty

2) Close Buffy Quotable:

I have seen no arguments against.

There is a "wait for the end of the death matches" faction on this one, though the current method of voting may be contributing to the problem.

6) Consolidate Due South, Smallville and Farscape:

I need help with this one.

Hmm... I could probably help, but not tonight. I'm for bed, soon.


Connie Neil - Aug 22, 2003 9:16:28 pm PDT #3340 of 10289
brillig

9) Consolidate PPO, Bitchy Fic and Bitches' Anthology:
I need help with this one.

Pro: Fic of all stripes seems to be focusing in Bitchy Fic (see PPO) and the project for which Anthology was designed is currently waiting for people to spare attention for it.

Con: none seen, but the PPO folks may not want to lose their focus


Jon B. - Aug 22, 2003 9:23:44 pm PDT #3341 of 10289
A turkey in every toilet -- only in America!

There is a "wait for the end of the death matches" faction on this one

I was abbreviating. That will be written in the ballot question.

Thanks Connie. I'll edit that in.


Fay - Aug 23, 2003 12:02:47 am PDT #3342 of 10289
"Fuck Western ideologically-motivated gender identification!" Sulu gasped, and came.

I have a strong urge to be a brat and note that Angel is being syndicated in the US, not abroad, and therefore the UnAms may not be feeling the same deep, heartfelt need to discuss each syndicated episode as it airs. But hey, I could be wrong.

?

I don't quite understand.

t /dumb


helentm - Aug 23, 2003 12:42:52 am PDT #3343 of 10289
Religion isn't the cause of wars. It's the excuse. - Christopher Brookmyre

Can I get some clarification? Does a vote for question 2 support closing Buffy quotable now or after we finish the death matches? Thanks.


Megan E. - Aug 23, 2003 2:49:40 am PDT #3344 of 10289

I have a strong urge to be a brat and note that Angel is being syndicated in the US, not abroad, and therefore the UnAms may not be feeling the same deep, heartfelt need to discuss each syndicated episode as it airs. But hey, I could be wrong.

It's going to be on Canada's Space channel every weeknight (12am Atlantic time), however, our Buffy syndication schedule differs quite a bit from that on F/X, so likely our Angel episodes will not match up either.


Kat - Aug 23, 2003 4:21:35 am PDT #3345 of 10289
"I keep to a strict diet of ill-advised enthusiasm and heartfelt regret." Leigh Bardugo

I'm gone for a big chunk of today.

I think that there should be a preamble with an explanation of why consolidation and clean up (server load is the largest reason, but also with Buffy being off air except syndication cleaning up as we begin as a community to envision where we are headed).

It also might be nice, though not on the ballot, to have a nice little note that goes with the voting announcement of what other things can we do to lighten the load.

Because I'm gone, I'm not so good with the drafting of those bits. Is there anyone who could possibly please step in?

Jon, when do you need the ballot by? ETA: got your email and I replied. Sorry for the Spam filtering. Everyone is pretty much filtered now and then I add them to an address book.


Cindy - Aug 23, 2003 4:57:11 am PDT #3346 of 10289
Nobody

Jon - good job on the Pros and Cons. Just a couple of comments...

4) Close Previously:
For: Old Buffy eps can be discussed in the main Buffy thread. Old Angel eps can be discussed in the main Angel thread, in Natter, in Unamerican, or even in Buffy.
Against: With Angel starting up in syndication this Fall, it will be frustrating not to have a central place where old Angels can be discussed. The main Angel thread won't work -- Unamericans won't want to be spoiled on current episodes. The other suggested threads all have other purposes.

Jon, I'd like to see included in the "For" argument, the following (worded more concisely *hopeful*):

  • Not only that old BtVS and Angel episode discussions "can" take place in the main show threads, but always have, even given the existence of the "Previously" thread.

  • Previously may have been created as a central place for rerun discussion, but it wasn't universally adopted, and therefore didn't serve as a central place, even if that was its purpose.

  • UnAmericans aren't on the North American rerun schedule to begin with

11) Close Angel Spoilage Lite:
For: Casting and other "lite" spoilers can be confirmed by emailing one of our known spoiler whores, or by writing in the main thread "I'd like a rumor confirmed. Can someone help me?"
Against: Some people visit Spoilers Lite to read about casting spoilers they might not have otherwise known about. You can't ask a question in the main thread if you don't know what the question is. The main thread has a very strict spoiler policy. It's nice to have a central place to learn about non-plot-point-specific spoilers like casting news.

I'd like to see the "For" section, modified to note:

  • People can use the board's "last" function, which will take them to the last page of the thread with the posting box, and post their questions in spoilers, without having to page through the whole spoiler thread.

  • People can check TVGuide.com (The stated purpose of Lite is for TV Guide level spoilage), Zap2it, Sci-Fire Wire, etc., for casting spoilers.

In your "Against" section, you state:

You can't ask a question in the main thread if you don't know what the question is.

You might want to reword this. Are you trying to say that you can't ask many questions without spilling a spoiler? Also? You can ask in the main show thread, if someone will answer a question in the regular spoilers thread, so that you can know whose post to look for, thus avoiding being spoiled. You can also ask in the main thread if someone email you at your profile addy, to answer your question - which you then ask in email. Your point as now worded isn't clear, and sort of hedges around the fact that there are other ways to get lightly spoiled.

I have a strong urge to be a brat and note that Angel is being syndicated in the US, not abroad, and therefore the UnAms may not be feeling the same deep, heartfelt need to discuss each syndicated episode as it airs. But hey, I could be wrong.

It's going to be on Canada's Space channel every weeknight (12am Atlantic time), however, our Buffy syndication schedule differs quite a bit from that on F/X, so likely our Angel episodes will not match up either.

Yes, but even if they do, NAFDA threads are Canadian-safe (although there are longer lines at the borders since y'all went pot-happy - erm... openly pot-happy). Canadians are people North Americans, too.


Jon B. - Aug 23, 2003 5:14:04 am PDT #3347 of 10289
A turkey in every toilet -- only in America!

Does a vote for question 2 support closing Buffy quotable now or after we finish the death matches?

After the death matches. It will be clear on the ballot, but I'll edit my Pros and Cons to make it clear there as well.

Cindy -- I just woke up. I'll need a little time to mentally process your concise additions. ;)