I'll either vote for or neutral on this proposal, because it's obviously driving people nuts and I don't like to see people driven nuts. Plus I've given up on avoiding press spoilers, though I still don't read interviews so as to avoid the spoilers there.

That said, I'd like to defend against the point Cindy made here:

When that happens, the actor is not going to be playing a character on the show, and so it is not spoiling the show in any way.

If Alexis Denisof were not returning to Angel next year, that would have a major plot impact on the show. That's a spoiler that "something is going to happen to Wesley." Everyone now knows a big fact about the show - it won't include Wesley. (Or they're recasting Wesley, and there's going to be a fannish riot.) "It's not worth the cost to the board as a whole to try to conceal it" is fine, actually I agree, but I don't think it's silly to think of that as a spoiler.

what about Angel coming back season 3 of Buffy? Does anyone remember if that was discussed during the summer leading up?

I wasn't here yet but Angel's return from hell was, much like Buffy's return from the dead, not even remotely a secret. I seem to recall the affilliate running news promos during the finale about DB's spinoff.

used phrases like "anti-spoiler," which I find more irritating than our existing definition of "spoiler,"

Yes. This. I'm willing to back any proposal that will forever put the kabosh on "anti-spoilers".

I guess part of the problem is that knowing ASH wasn't going to be a BtVS regular after S5 was NOT considered a spoiler. We discussed it in the main threads without incident.

So why is the same type of information spoilery now? When did that change?

This proposal is an attempt to bring the spoiler threshhold back down to the saner level it was at two years ago.

I'm with John Sweden - I don't get the WB promos either. I would not have know about (season 7 spoiler) Angel appearing on BtVS had I not read people talking about the promo on the board. Now, I'm not saying that people can't talk about the promos, of course you can, that's in the rules and is entirely fair play. I try to leave the board as the watch-and-post ends so I don't get spoiled, but sometimes it doesn't work. My point, and I do have one, is that HSQ is sometimes impossible when people know too much (and, shit, the WB and UPN seem to give away the entire fucking agriculture business in their promos).

As for the current topic(s) I know two of them. One I was spoiled for by friends and a fic archive. The other I was spoiled for twice right here in the show threads. And, yes, spoiled twice because the first time I was told not to pay it any heed. I would have preferred to not know about either of them.

The thing I've noticed reading back through the spoiler thread (once the season was over it makes for very interesting reading) is how people seem to be surprised that people can be unspoiled. I don't search the internet for news. I don't read trade magazines. I do read EW, but they're pretty good about spoiler warning, so I can skip the article if I want. Spoilers can be avoided if a) you don't go looking for them and b) they aren't posted in normally spoiler free spaces by people who assume that they are common knowledge because they (the person) knows it.

Okay, this isn't particularly coherent, but my main point is - we can't assume that what is considered HUGE and EVERYWHERE is really something that can't be avoided as long as people don't talk about it in the show threads.

You say the news is on the WB site? What about people that don't go there? You say the news is in the trade magazines? What about people that don't read them? You say the news is being promoted in WB television spots? I don't get the WB, myself, but since most of you do and most of you - presumably - are watching it. Fair game, and well in keeping with our current policy.

How about calling them reverse casting spoilers?

spoiled twice because the first time I was told not to pay it any heed

Was that me? Because at the time (and I was in the spoiler thread), it wasn't concrete. In retrospect, it I guess it is.

'Twas you, ita, and I thank you for it. But the same sort of thing got posted again and spoiled me all over.

Al in all, there are things that come down that are saturated and unavoidable. In fact some things that one would have to engear themselves like Tommy to avoid. (Movie from the 70's...)

These things need to be accounted for. I wish there were some way to separate out these facts as "special circumstances" and declair it in the thread.

Then again, this Special Directive method could have been used for the Firefly situation.

Perhaps we just need a Special Directive process to deal with specific events, casting, spoilers and the like.

Major Angel casting issue #1 and major Angel casting issue #2 are the sort of casting issues being reported damn near everywhere but we can't talk about them? it would appear a bit pointless at that juncture.

For instance, Doyle leaving and Wes joining would not have invoked this because it would have involved a big surprise and affected a current season storyline. Whereas ACI#1 and ACI#2 will affect an upcoming storyline, but we can postulate how the events will happen without blowing an in-progress season.

My 2c, I guess

If Alexis Denisof were not returning to Angel next year, that would have a major plot impact on the show.

Were that the case, we'd only know he wouldn't be there. We wouldn't know how much or what kind of attention it would get. I agree it would have a major impact on the show as a series, but wouldn't bet on it as a major plot point. We wouldn't know how it would effect the plot or whether or not the writing team would brush over it in one scene, or spend months having the MoG search for Wesley. We wouldn't know if Wesley were dead, or kidnapped by pirates (arrr), or Plei.

And truthfully, if you're getting your anti-spoiler holy shit quotient from the credits (because that is what would happen, the opening credits would roll, and there'd be no A.D. and people would think, "Huh?" - it's not like they'd find out from the show itself), what kind of HSQ is it we're protecting?

But that's not even the issue. We're saying that when, between seasons, someone joins or leaves the cast of series regulars, that information is widely available, and fairly hard to avoid (albeit not impossible), for a very long time. In the end, it's information that is made available by the writers, by the network and by the actors themselves, before the episodes ever air. It is information that is invariably spilled in beginning of season promos. According to current policy, we will be allowing it before anyone actually sees an episode, so why the pretense?

I'm telling you right now that David Boreanaz is on Angel in the Fall. Do you feel spoiled? Because really, it's nothing that's been seen on the air. There's been no promo. We just know he'll be there. Ditto AD. We're all throwing AD's name out, because we know he'll be there, even though we haven't "seen it on the screen" - we just know he's signed on. Christian Kane isn't signed on. We just *know* that. Nobody pretends he is when they're wistfully lusting over Lindsey. They say, "I wish Lindsey would come back," and "DB says he'd love CK to come back on, why don't they bring him on." Nobody pretends SMG will join the A:ts cast of regulars. Somehow, that's all allowable, but this anti-spoiler crap makes me feel like I can't say Mary Tyler Moore won't be on Angel this Fall. It's nonsense. She won't, either. (Ha.)

Also? Had AD left Angel, I wouldn't want to miss news of what show AD would move to, just because it was treated as a spoiler, because someone would rather find out in the opening credits. That's what this is about - only actors who are contracted as series regulars and appear in the credits - not guests, not recurring characters - and only when their status changes during the long off-season. If someone is slated to come or go in November, I've got your back. We shouldn't discuss it 'til it airs. But this is different in part because suddenly we're ignoring the precedent set after The Gift and again with ASH's casting information. When and how was the precedent overthrown? And why? And by whom?

Wow. Cindy speaks totally for me.