I have nothing new to add. You can count on me for a vote in favor of his removal.

Are we starting the vote on the 18th? I'm seeing a couple folks stating votes now, which will make it hard to count.

Trudy, you said exactly what I've been thinking.

Voting will start Wednesday the 19th.

The voting will happen separate and an email will get sent to whoever is counting the votes. So it doesn't matter about counting what is said here.

I can count, but I do not know how to set up a poll.

the reason I never spoke up about his behavior was because I was convinced I was just being a bitch to assume that he would use people that way.

Obviously, I saw the same, Amy, but I didn't say anything either and not because I was being a bitch but more because I figured someone with more clout (in the SFF world, where I'm still a newb) would see it and smack him down. I kept waiting and it didn't happen and in retrospect I think it's because of his habit of a) moving up and b) because he surrounded himself with and courted favor primarily from women. Very rarely did he seek out the approval or company of men. I wonder if it's because subconsciously, he must have known men wouldn't have put up with his shit.

Which makes me all the angrier I didn't say anything. Then again, I was busy trying to navigate my own path in this world.

Crap--there's just no right answer, is there?

The problem is, humans are human. There's always a gray area, unless you see someone actually drowning a kitten or something.

It does speak to how different online interaction can be from F2F, though, I think. Which doesn't make it better or worse, just different, and prone to some behavior that predators couldn't necessarily get away with in person.

In this case, especially, the online interaction made it a whole lot easier for him to reach a much greater number of women, most of whom he wouldn't have been able to interact with any other way.

Bah.

I feel like I should demur being thanked in the same breath as DX and Karl. While that particular occasion may have pinged me in the moment, obviously my instincts were nowhere near as good as theirs because it didn't become a sticking point for me long-term and I sailed along pretty oblivious to members of the community being hurt and made uncomfortable. I'm mainly just glad I didn't respond with "Good one, bro!" and a high five like I'd dreaded when first rereading the thread.

Long-ass meara ahead:

I've never had any problems with him myself, at all, but it's deeply upsetting to know that other long-time Buffistas have come to feel so uncomfortable around him that they have chosen to exclude themselves from the community.

I hate this. So much. It's one thing to naturally drift away, but to be driven away in this manner sucks.

I'm sorry, too, that we didn't have your back when it happened.

THIS. Which makes being driven away doubly hurtful. I'm sorry too.

There are some on the board whom I know well IRL, and count as some of my best friends. And the remainder of the board, I think of as my interstate/international tribe. I know, that if I need vibes, I have a bank that I can call on to help me through a tough time. How many stories have we heard of a Buffista driving to a train station or airport to help a friend or family member of a board member, basically a perfect stranger, and come to the rescue? How much couch surfing has been done via the board? Who needs air bnb? This board represents what is good about this world and humanity. As such, despite being more lurker than poster, I value the board and the members.

Cosigned. This board is responsible for so many good things in my life, and it bothers me to know that it wasn't a good space for some.

About the situation on Twitter, most of the details are not being discussed publicly. For every angry, hurt vaguebook post you can see, please believe there is a MOUNTAIN of backchannel behind it where women are sharing their stories in safer spaces than the open Twitterverse.

It's important to reiterate this. Individual proof becomes less important when there's a multitude of women saying the same damned thing.

Do we, as a community, want to continue to support someone's "learning process" when we know first-hand it's been a decade-plus and have heard second-hand that if anything, he's gotten more sophisticated in his bad behavior. I say no.

Hell no. He didn't learn when we "gently" corrected him, and he hasn't learned now. His lousy upbringing doesn't give him a free pass to do exactly what his parents did to him.

The other reason I support banning him is that to do less, now that we know how his actions have hurt people in our community, seems like a slap in the face to those he has hurt, pissed off, or driven away. And I would much rather support them than keep enabling him.

Very much so. I totally understand if those that were hurt and driven away only came back to tell us to fuck off for being so blind, but I would rather them see definitive action to eliminate any continuation of the bad behavior.

I love how we have come together again and again to support each other, to share our triumphs and milestones, and to mourn.

We are a family. We might not like everyone all of the time, but we'll have each other's backs.

But being genuinely sorry doesn't mean shit in this kind of situation; demonstrating, over and over and over again, that you are no longer a toxic person is the only thing that really matters.

This is really important. We're all good with words, but the ACTIONS have to take center stage. I'm glad you are doing well, Strix. I'm wishing you the best for continued movement forward.

Ultimately he embraced the arrogance and manipulation of his parents and as an adult employs them.

Trudy FTW. He was handed solutions on a silver platter, but instead he chose to continue the cycle. P-C, if you ever have the courage to read this, I sincerely hope you will take the suggestion to get therapy to heart. This is not how you win favor and gain friends.

his active presence in Bitches ruined it for me. He's certainly not the only reason I'm not around as much, but it certainly didn't help.

This makes me incredibly sad. Keeping up with many of you on FB only isn't the same.

I do believe we could not have had this conversation many years ago when some of these things occurred, the board has mellowed A LOT and we (continued...)

( continues...) have had the benefit of witnessing so many other social network ups and downs.

I completely agree. msbelle, as usual, is really smart. This could have ended very differently then.

I've been mostly away due to a totally separate set of hurt feelings and I have to say, coming back to this thoughtful discussion has been kind of healing for me. It seems dumb to say 'I wish it was under different circumstances because...of course. Still, it is so good to see the community working.

I'm glad you've come back, bonny. It's important for everyone to feel like they can chime in, even if they haven't been around or taken the unpopular side (which I have not yet seen in this case).

Also, Karl and DX? It's good to see you around too. I wish I could have seen what you saw.

I thought for a long time that Sunil was manipulative in the social- and professional-climbing sense, but the reason I never spoke up about his behavior was because I was convinced I was just being a bitch to assume that he would use people that way.

Me too. I didn't see it in the SFF community, because I'm barely on the fringes, but the cozying up to Rob Thomas, et. al. always rubbed me the wrong way. More recently the non-stop updates of his "Hamilton"-centric NYC trip felt like a calculated measure to get LMM to notice him. But I thought I was being petty, and he was just overly enthusiastic.

Which makes me all the angrier I didn't say anything. Then again, I was busy trying to navigate my own path in this world.

I really think we need to cut ourselves just a bit of slack. It's hard when we don't have access to the entirety of the bad behavior. Now that we do, we're doing something about it. What we're doing now? Is the only answer.

I support voting to suspend our procedure. While an immediate ban would accomplish the same goal, this sets a precedent for how seriously we take who we are as a community.