There are cockroaches in Mexico big enough to own property.

Cordelia ,'Lessons'


Boxed Set, Vol. VI: I am not a number, I am a free thread!

A topic for the discussion of Doctor Who, Arrow, and The Flash. Beware possible invasions of iZombie, Sleepy Hollow, or pretty much any other "genre" (read: sci fi, superhero, or fantasy) show that captures our fancy. Expect adult content and discussion of the Big Gay Sex.

Marvel superheroes are discussed over at the MCU thread.

Whitefont all unaired in the U.S. ep discussion, identifying it as such, and including the show and ep title in blackfont.

Blackfont is allowed after the show has aired on the east coast.

This is NOT a general TV discussion thread.


billytea - Dec 11, 2018 6:57:56 pm PST #1238 of 2020
You were a wrong baby who grew up wrong. The wrong kind of wrong. It's better you hear it from a friend.

So I lied before. I do have a few thoughts about the finale, which (of course) have to do with past episodes. Let's start with Tim Shaw's planet collection. (But if you ring in the next 15 minutes, we'll throw in this set of eight asteroids for free!) There's nothing new under the sun and all that; for instance, that scene where Graham and Ryan duck while surrounded by sniperbots which then shoot one another: I can think of at least four previous adventures that pulled some version of that trick.

And they've done the planets in stasis notion before as well, back in 1978, in an adventure called The Pirate Planet. This ep's reputation has, I think, improved in the intervening years. The plot is actually very clever and is quite funny to boot. Despite this, it was one of only five adventures not to get novelised at the time. The reason: the BBC couldn't afford the scriptwriter's fee to adapt it. It was one of three stories written for Doctor Who by Douglas Adams.

Before The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy was produced, Douglas Adams was involved in Doctor Who. He was script editor for a year, and wrote three scripts for the show. One, Shada, was cancelled after a strike stopped production halfway through. (It was released last year with the addition of some animated sequences.) Another, City of Death, is regarded by many (including me) as one of the greatest adventures ever. It has an ingenious plot, a brilliant Part 2 cliffhanger, a fantastic guest cast (Julian Glover and Catherine Schell), Tom Baker and Lalla Ward in love in Paris, and some of the funniest scenes the show's ever done. Oh, and a cameo by John Cleese and Eleanor Bron. [link] Seriously, if you get the chance, watch this adventure.

Then there's The Pirate Planet. It's a very clever notion. The Captain (a space pirate, complete with robot parrot), has engineered an entire planet to teleport around the galaxy. It's completely hollow; he uses it to engulf other planets and strip them of their mineral wealth (killing the entire population in the process, if it's inhabited). The Captain then compresses the planet's remains to the size of a basketball and holds it in a stasis field. He's done this to 22 planets so far.

Tim Shaw, of course, is doing much the same thing. Compare the dialogue between the two adventures when the Doctor finds out. The Battle of Ranskoor av Kolos:

"Planetary genocide... Tim Shaw, I didn't like you before but now... Make them stop, you're breaking every known law in the universe."

And The Pirate Planet:

Captain: "The whole system is so perfectly aligned by the most exquisite exercise in gravitational geometry that every system is balanced out within itself. Which is why we can stand next to billions of tons of super- compressed matter and not even be aware of it. With each new planet I acquire, the forces are realigned but the system remains stable."
The Doctor: "Then it's the most brilliant piece of astro-gravitational engineering I've ever seen. The concept is simply staggering... Pointless, but staggering."
Captain: "I'm gratified that you appreciate it."
The Doctor: "Appreciate it? Appreciate it! You commit mass destruction and murder on a scale that's almost inconceivable, and you ask me to appreciate it?! Just because you happen to have made a brilliantly-conceived toy out of the mummified remains of planets!"
Captain: "Devilstorms, Doctor! It is not a toy!"
The Doctor: "Then WHAT'S IT FOR?! Huh? What are you doing? What could possibly be worth all this?"

The answer is so the Captain can escape his current enslavement by his nurse, but that's not important here. What is important is that this is genocide on a massive scale. In one script, the Doctor understands this. In the other, it sounds like she's considering blocking him on Facebook. I would posit that this is a problem for a series that tends to rely heavily on the Doctor carrying moral authority, a notion I'd like to explore further in a future post.


sj - Dec 12, 2018 4:11:55 am PST #1239 of 2020
"There are few hours in life more agreeable than the hour dedicated to the ceremony known as afternoon tea."

Is anyone watching NIghtflyer? I'm a few episodes in, and it's pretty interesting so far.


-t - Dec 12, 2018 5:05:42 am PST #1240 of 2020
I am a woman of various inclinations and only some of the time are they to burn everything down in frustration

This season of Doctor Who has come across as if it's heard of morality and thinks it's a good idea but, like, what is it, really?


-t - Dec 12, 2018 5:10:08 am PST #1241 of 2020
I am a woman of various inclinations and only some of the time are they to burn everything down in frustration

Thanks for the reminder, sj, I had meant to give that a try but it has been sneaking past me.


sj - Dec 12, 2018 5:24:17 am PST #1242 of 2020
"There are few hours in life more agreeable than the hour dedicated to the ceremony known as afternoon tea."

They've been airing one a night. So, they're really adding up on my DVR.


-t - Dec 12, 2018 5:38:11 am PST #1243 of 2020
I am a woman of various inclinations and only some of the time are they to burn everything down in frustration

OH, wow, I wondered how they were on episode 10 already.

DW: actually, it's more like someone was given a set of bullet points of "what people like about Doctor Who" that included things like "moral authority" and told to crank out something appropriate by tomorrow. Feels like an essay written on the Cliff's Notes rather than the text, somehow.


Vonnie K - Dec 12, 2018 6:23:05 am PST #1244 of 2020
Kiss me, my girl, before I'm sick.

I quit all the CW superhero shows cold turkey, like, 2 seasons ago, but managed to DVR the Elseworlds crossover after catching some ads for it. Turns out I didn't really need to know what each respective show was up to -- it was pretty self-contained (except for the part that Oliver was apparently... in prison recently and was on the outs with Felicity. Ehh, whatev.) And as usual, the crossover was a ton of fun. Especially the earlier parts where Grant Gustin and Stephen Amell tried to play each other's role (man, that Flash suit is not designed to flatter someone with Amell's build.) And Oliver being a total grump about Batman. Reminded me of why I used to love these show so much.

Not sure what to think about Ruby Rose as Batwoman. She looked cool but I think she was a bit flat, acting-wise? I know nothing about DC Comics canon other than through various movies though.


-t - Dec 12, 2018 6:40:15 am PST #1245 of 2020
I am a woman of various inclinations and only some of the time are they to burn everything down in frustration

Aw, cool, I haven't watched any of those in a couple of seasons but was intrigued by the Elseworlds ads.


sj - Dec 12, 2018 7:07:39 am PST #1246 of 2020
"There are few hours in life more agreeable than the hour dedicated to the ceremony known as afternoon tea."

Elseworlds was very good. Though, I'm still watching all the CW shows.


billytea - Dec 12, 2018 8:32:25 pm PST #1247 of 2020
You were a wrong baby who grew up wrong. The wrong kind of wrong. It's better you hear it from a friend.

Now here's an oddity in the evolution of Chris Chibnall. Chris Chibnall wrote an 11th Doctor episode back in Season 7, called Dinosaurs on a Spaceship. I rate it as one of his best, because it is entirely true to label (it has dinosaurs! And they're on a spaceship!). But it has problems; the villain is an uncomfortable embodiment of certain anti-Semitic stereotypes (and is named Solomon). And in the climax, after Solomon's already been neutralised as a threat to anyone, the Doctor rather gratuitously blows the guy up. A rather out-of-character act of violence.

Pretty much the antithesis of this season. Aside from the equally gratuitous 'splosions at the end of Kerblam! (also true to label!), this Doctor is more opposed to killing than any previous incarnation. It would make sense for her pacifism to be Chibnall's reaction to a backlash from the end of Dinosaurs on a Spaceship. (Which could also explain why it's so incoherent, if it's reactive rather than due to any personal conviction.)

But I've heard a more entertaining theory. It's a reaction to criticism of DoaS, yes, but it's Chibnall's backlash. "You got a problem with the Doctor killing someone? Fine, this Doctor agrees with you! Let's see how that works, huh?" By the end of the season, we have people complaining this Doctor is too nice, too unwilling to take decisive action. She lets people get off scot free. Her inaction is sometimes more cruel than prospective killings she berates. Her moral code is so indistinct that she equates a genocidal maniac with a bereaved husband killing said genocidal maniac. Her own unwillingness to 'neutralise' Tim Shaw back when he was a pathetic petty killer is what gave him the power to become a genocidal maniac. It's Chibnall's master plan: show up the contradictions in (what he believes is) pacifism until the audience is up in arms and ready to beg for every ep to end like Dinosaurs in a Spaceship! It's moustache-twirling villainy at its best!

Or, as one wag put it:

"Good! Your hate has made you powerful. Now, fulfill your destiny and watch my morally weird finale!"