Xander: Am I right, Giles? Giles: I'm almost certain you're not. Though, to be fair, I haven't been listening.

'Sleeper'


Boxed Set, Vol. VI: I am not a number, I am a free thread!

A topic for the discussion of Doctor Who, Arrow, and The Flash. Beware possible invasions of iZombie, Sleepy Hollow, or pretty much any other "genre" (read: sci fi, superhero, or fantasy) show that captures our fancy. Expect adult content and discussion of the Big Gay Sex.

Marvel superheroes are discussed over at the MCU thread.

Whitefont all unaired in the U.S. ep discussion, identifying it as such, and including the show and ep title in blackfont.

Blackfont is allowed after the show has aired on the east coast.

This is NOT a general TV discussion thread.


Katerina Bee - Nov 27, 2018 7:18:44 pm PST #1214 of 2020
Herding cats for fun

Secret Agent Man? I am not familiar.


Beverly - Nov 27, 2018 7:59:37 pm PST #1215 of 2020
Days shrink and grow cold, sunlight through leaves is my song. Winter is long.

It was actually Secret Agent, with Patrick McGoohan. Johnny Rivers sang the theme song, Secret Agent Man, which my brain retrieves before the actual show title. McGoohan went on to star in The Prisoner, set in a pretty Welsh seaside village that nobody could leave. The theory was that agents got "retired" there, since they couldn't be allowed to roam loose in society after their service, since they *knew stuff.*


sj - Nov 28, 2018 2:10:55 am PST #1216 of 2020
"There are few hours in life more agreeable than the hour dedicated to the ceremony known as afternoon tea."

He was Biff in Back to the Future.


Toddson - Nov 28, 2018 9:21:37 am PST #1217 of 2020
Friends don't let friends read "Atlas Shrugged"

The Prisoner was set in Portmeiron (ha!). The Secret Agent - OLD episodes - is being shown on a broadcast channel - Charge! TV - as Danger Man (which may have been its original title). They also show (OLD!) Avengers - ones with Honor Blackman.


billytea - Dec 02, 2018 3:58:13 am PST #1218 of 2020
You were a wrong baby who grew up wrong. The wrong kind of wrong. It's better you hear it from a friend.

Have not seen tonight's yet - will use it for workout tomorrow. But I just realized what has been bugging me about this new doctor. She's NICE. The Doctor has mostly been good - with some very dark exceptions. But I don't remember any version of the Doctor who was nice. I'm not sure you could even say that about the fifth doctor.

I agree with this. The Fifth Doctor spent a lot of his time being not so much nice as tetchy, a side effect of having to travel through space and time with Adric and Tegan. The Second and Seventh Doctors were avuncular at times (notably the Second Doctor comforting Victoria about her father's death in the middle of Tomb of the Cybermen), but I wouldn't call them nice (especially the Seventh).

I'm fine with the idea of a nice Doctor in and of itself - one of the strengths of Doctor Who's format is that it can reinvent and explore options - but not if it makes her ineffectual as well. Particularly glaring in Arachnids in the UK, where she just lets Ed Sheeran walk. (I feel like there's an earlier draft of that ep with a different conclusion, given his "I'm exposed!" bout of scenery-chewing.) She was more effective both last week and this week, though last week included some problematic elements. (Side note: one thing I didn't notice about the resolution was that Kerblamazon was going to shut down for a month, but the staff were only going to receive two weeks' pay over that time.) Up till then, though - and really I'd include Kerblam! in this - she's made a habit of achieving only limited victories.

That's a closer point of comparison with the Fifth Doctor. When he took on the role, DW had spent twelve very successful years headed by Jon Pertwee and Tom Baker - both of whom were really characters first and actors second. (Extremely good at it, but still.) Peter Davison was quite the contrast - less attention-grabbing, less fuelled by leading-man charisma. More like the Second Doctor - he didn't just walk into a situation and take charge, he seemed to prefer to remain unnoticed while he worked things out. That could work well. I think Frontios shows him at his best; Caves of Androzani, which takes him out of his comfort zone, is regarded as one of the best adventures of all time.

However, these seem to be almost in spite of the production team. The script editor of the time seemed to be more taken with the villains and all too frequently showed up this Doctor as being insufficiently ruthless for a violent universe. Resurrection of the Daleks has a traumatised Tegan leaving at the end, unable to cope with all the death anymore. (And has the Doctor threatening to gun down Davros before vacillating. Nothing wrong with refusing to shoot him; but the initial threat makes him look weak.) Warriors of the Deep ends with the Doctor in a base, surrounded by the corpses of all the humans and the monsters who'd attacked them, impotently wishing there had been another way. And of course Earthshock saw, for the first time in 16 years, the death of a companion. (To raucous approval, but still.) Two of those were written by the script editor. Seems pretty much to have been his actual vision of what Doctor Who should be. (Lots of pretty brutal violence that the Doctor is often powerless to stop.)


Connie Neil - Dec 02, 2018 6:53:06 am PST #1219 of 2020
brillig

I'm guessing you're not a fan of Adric. Though I confess to saying "Oh, yay" when he went boom.


billytea - Dec 02, 2018 6:42:37 pm PST #1220 of 2020
You were a wrong baby who grew up wrong. The wrong kind of wrong. It's better you hear it from a friend.

Not so much, no, though here I was thinking more about general audience reaction. One does feel a bit sorry for the actor (Matthew Waterhouse) - it was almost his first TV gig and he didn't really have the chops for it (it was one of only three TV roles he ever did). Aside from that, the production team couldn't agree on what the character should be - he started as an Artful Dodger concept, but morphed into an obnoxious maths swot. (His lowest point was Four to Doomsday, where the writers opted to have him decide that the frog-shaped alien tyrant on his way to place the Earth under his totalitarian rule was making some good points. And that girls were just not very bright, and kind of icky.) That said, I don't think he did himself any favours - pretty much all his coworkers are pretty scathing towards him in commentaries and interviews, which suggests he didn't build up much goodwill. (Lalla Ward in particular is utterly and hilariously savage about him.)

However, I still rate his adventures above average, and for his first three (the E-Space trilogy), I think the character worked pretty well. His acting wasn't inspired, but it wasn't a drag either. He really gets lambasted for his time with the Fifth Doctor (at which point he'd been on the show longer than any of his coworkers). Previous post, I covered the script editor, Eric Saward, and his apparent wish to be making Apocalypse Now in space. At the same time, the producer, John Nathan-Turner, was trying to make Eastenders in space, which was wildly incompatible and worked out just about as well.

This has some relevance for the current season. JNT decided that for the Fifth Doctor, they should get back to having three companions, like the show had at the start; and they should use the larger cast to generate interpersonal conflicts and dramas, as in a soap opera. Now, I don't think this is a bad idea. Russell T. Davies showed that you could make this work with Rose and her family. But JNT, unlike almost all his predecessors (and successors), had no scriptwriting experience. And Saward clearly wasn't the guy to do interpersonal drama. As a result, you got a crew who just mostly seemed to be irritable with each other for no particular reason, or fighting over completely artificial issues (e.g. fascism: yes or no?).

With, ultimately, no good reason for the expanded cast, they took turns at being sidelined. (The nadir, possibly, was Terminus, where two companions spent a couple of whole episodes trapped in the airducts, with zero effect on the actual plot.) Which brings us to this season, with three companions again, and the soapie idea. If you are actually planning to do something with the character relationships, then I'm in for a four-person crew. To date I think this season is a bit lopsided. The deal between Graham and Ryan gets a fair bit of airtime, but the other possibilities are still rather loose.

But at least there's no Adric.


billytea - Dec 02, 2018 8:10:20 pm PST #1221 of 2020
You were a wrong baby who grew up wrong. The wrong kind of wrong. It's better you hear it from a friend.

And now, a brief interlude inspired by last week's ep:

Q: Why doesn't the sonic screwdriver work on witches?
A: Because... they're... made of wood?


Typo Boy - Dec 04, 2018 8:57:35 pm PST #1222 of 2020
Calli: My people have a saying. A man who trusts can never be betrayed, only mistaken.Avon: Life expectancy among your people must be extremely short.

heh.


billytea - Dec 08, 2018 1:27:33 am PST #1223 of 2020
You were a wrong baby who grew up wrong. The wrong kind of wrong. It's better you hear it from a friend.

It Takes You Away: I kind of loved it. I enjoyed the different settings, Ribbons was delightful, the Norwegian Gothic was creepy enough for Ryan to nope on out of there (my Ryan, not the character). I do have quibbles, the ending was a bit rushed and the exposition dumps were particularly dumpy. But this ep really felt like it was doing Doctor Who and doing it well.

One of Doctor Who's great strengths is that it can do virtually any kind of story. It's done westerns, fairy tales, superheroes, Méliès-style head trips, Bond movies, courtroom drama, French farce, Greek myth, Shakespearean tragedy, political satire, social commentary, and more space opera, period drama and Gothic horror than you can poke a sonic at. And then they started pastiching not just genres but specific stories, anything from Frankenstein to Jason and the Argonauts to Murder on the Orient Express. And somewhere along the way, they also realised they could also use this trick to stitch different genres together. Which is what you get here. The cabin in the woods, the Antizone tunnels and the Solitract's universe are all from wildly different stories playing by different rules. I'm a big fan of Doctor Who doing this kind of thing (assuming it's done well), if only because it's particularly well-suited to do so.

I thought Whittaker's Doctor really worked in this story. In particular, I felt this ep showed the limits of her niceness. It starts in the cottage, where she shows great concern for Hanne, before deliberately keeping her in the dark with the message she writes out for Ryan. That was Seventh Doctor-level manipulation. And once in the Solitract universe, she wasn't inclined to sugar-coat things. "She's not your wife! She's furniture with a pulse." is pretty blunt. And she then was quite ruthless in working on the Solitract to sever the relationships, almost seducing Erik's wife away from him, right in front of him. Conversely, the key to 'winning' this adventure was precisely her ability to empathise with - well, a talking frog puppet on a chair. I wouldn't say she's the only Docgtor who could've convinced the Solitract both that she was its friend and she had to leave, but I do thinkshe could do it better than any of the others. This ep added some interesting texture to her main character traits. A couple of other notes. Thought this was kind of hilarious:

Ribbons: Bird is lunch. Maybe codger is tea.
Graham: Who are you calling a codger? It's you who stinks of his own wee.
Ribbons: That's not my wee.

Reminded me of Death to Smoochy. ("Scuse if I smell like piss. You know how it is.")

Also, they wrung a bit of emotional complexity out of the Doctor's wall-writing. ("Assume her dad is dead. Keep her safe. Find out who else can take care of her.") First, putting Hanne's situation so bluntly, and making Ryan responsible for it. And then when her deadbeat dad returns and is confronted with it. (One fumble in this ep, and part of why the ending seemed rushed: Hanne's dad had abandoned her for days, allowed her to think he'd been taken, terrorised her to keep her in the house. That goes beyond a bereaved father struggling with a tendency towards neglect. The ep seems aware of this at points, but should really have addressed it at the end.)

I have a couple of other thoughts, which delve into history, but that's for another post.