Martin Luther is definitely all about salvation by faith, and I think not by predestination. Wasn't his whole thing anti-indulgence?

I thought the pre-destination was anti-indulgence too. Because if you were pre-destined, then you didn't need to buy indulgences!

If you have faith, you're saved -- nothing was decided at birth. Also, faith will motivate you to be a good person.

In my head I was separating the belief that once saved you can't be unsaved from predestination, and seeing the former as more along this line coupled with Steph's point about humans being prone to sin and needing grace even after they have been saved. But I see now that there's a bunch of different POVs out there.

I think I might have been mixing up two lessons- predestination and grace (by faith alone) -

From here: [link]

Martin Luther, a central figure of the Protestant Reformation, taught that after baptism, original sin remained. Grace acts as a sort of cloak which covers the corruption of human nature and makes the person acceptable to God, though underneath he remains depraved. Luther is famously credited with having said that the justified soul is a “snow-covered pile of dung.”

I thought the pre-destination was anti-indulgence too. Because if you were pre-destined, then you didn't need to buy indulgences!

Oh, fair enough! FWIW, I don't get predestination. (I mean, I understand the words, but I don't understand the argument for making it a basis of your religion, really.)

Luther is famously credited with having said that the justified soul is a “snow-covered pile of dung.”

That sounds about right. And reminds me of my father calling spring the time when the dog poop melts. Remember before people had to clean up after their dogs?

But I see now that there's a bunch of different POVs out there.

How else can you have heresy trials and religious wars! The question of whether God has three aspects or just one was good for quite a few centuries of bloodbaths and denunciations.

I don't get predestination.

I don't think anyone (except Calvin, maybe) ever got it. Which is why no one believes it any more. I think it's initial popularity was, as Matt pointed out, it enabled its believers to feel superior to everyone else.

Who is it that believes only 166,000 people will get into heaven? Seventh Day Adventists or Jehovah's Witnesses or who?

Who is it that believes only 166,000 people will get into heaven? Seventh Day Adventists or Jehovah's Witnesses or who?

I think Jehovah's Witnesses.

Just before I became an atheist, I was hanging out with some Jehovah's Witnesses out of curiosity. They were trying to convert me by reading scripture about the 166,000 thing, but my takeaway was, "Wow, you really can support anything with bible quotes." (I no longer believe that, btw.) So I have them to thank for helping make me an atheist.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are in the process of divesting their property in Dumbo, Brooklyn, which was once a shitty industrial area, and now is some of the most valuable real estate in the world. It's interesting how a religion that believes in the imminent end of the world made such a smart, long-term real estate investment.