I'm not saying don't get an education, though. I'm saying, for me, with kids to think about, it's a little late to spend a lot on a degree that doesn't have significant ROI. But there are also ways to be educated that won't leave you in crippling debt.

I just think not every kid who's going to college -- and I agree that most of them should, and that it's a valuable experience -- should come out with hundreds of thousands in debt because they went to Harvard, whether or not they can find a job better than Starbucks.

My students come out with some debt, but certainly not crippling. Often their loan totals are less than $2,000/year because they have so much other aid because their families are in the bottom 25% of wager earners in the US.

They also are always shocked when we read a study that says roughy 8% of students in their income bracket will graduate college before age 24. I don't know why, but I find that to be a startling and depressing statistic.

Those families see education as primarily something that should relate to making money

Just about everyone in my parent's generation has one (usually more) degree. The generation before that was probably 0% with respects to higher education. Such is our third world experience.

My mother would kill puppies to get me in grad school, possibly one puppy if I went back for another bachelor's. But if it wasn't something tied into professional development somehow, no animals would be harmed in the earning of the degree.

What she has been forced to give on is that I haven't stopped learning just because I stopped going to school, so she had to back down on her definition of "educated person" since I'm still the only one in the family who grasps the difficulty of world map projections.

Or other random bullshit.

I was offered my first full time job in IT before I graduated high school, but I knew I couldn't get out that early.

Completely unrelatedly I can't find that interesting comic I read yesterday about a girl coming to terms with her best friend coming out as a gay transman. It was really touching except for how it seemed to hinge on her friend *not* coming out as liking girls. Like, what she realised wasn't a "betrayal" only went so far.

Kat,

your discussion is not an unfamiliar one. Among the things I'm interested in is what kind of educational interventions can help students in that socioeconomic bracket. In my view I think good mentoring programs with professionals who originally were in those backgrounds can help students see future employment possibilities in a variety of majors. There are hundreds of careers most people have never heard of, but you don't get exposure to them by accident.

Fairly typical, these days, actually.

Thanks Connie. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around "heart attack" and to have her hubby say she may be home tomorrow...just feels whirlwind. And I'm 3 states away. I can't imagine how her family feels.

Those families see education as primarily something that should relate to making money

Oh yeah. My roommate who was the first in her immediate family to go to college switched from engineering to business -- there was no way she wasn't going to get a practical degree. And of course, my other friend whose mother was a makeup lady graduated with the least debt. (Except for our friend who was apparently secret-rich, I guess.)

What I want to do is tell kids who are first-generation or generally poor but excelling in high school that they should apply to fancier schools than they might know about, for the best financial aid.

I would agree with the fancy schools. I am the first person in my family to go to college, and I am pretty sure I am still the only one with a four year degree, including my cousins' children. I did not necessarily do practical (theatre is actually more practical than English), but I think if I went to a fancy school, I would have been able to make more connections and move into something other than office work.

I could say the same thing about an MFA in writing. Give me twenty MFA graduates and one of them will publish regularly and successfully.

I don't think anyone gets an MFA in writing thinking that they will make a living publishing their creative writing. Or, at least, they shouldn't because that is something a tiny percentage of writers are able to do. Several of the folks from my MFA program have had quite successful writing careers but I'm not sure that any of them support themselves for any length of time solely through their writing, especially not through fiction or poetry writing. Getting a writing MFA isn't really a per-requisite of any job except, sometimes, a job teaching writing at the college level. But...

I think most of my students would benefit from college not because it increases their job chances (though it certainly does, in looking at unemployment rates of those with 4 year degrees and those without), but because there is something ineffable that matters in being an educated person.

Yes, this, I got two degrees in fields that don't lead to many people have high-salary careers--film & fiction--but I learned how to Learn getting those degrees and I learned how to write which has led me to a career with decent pay and stability and room to grow. But, what I learned in pursuit of the degrees has enriched my life in ways that have nothing to do with the job I have to support myself. My education has value beyond a simple balance between what I paid to get it and what I've earned in my work.

From my own field: you needn't have explicitly studied hort to get a job in hort, but some plant-based studies is a bonus, be it botany or environmental studies or even something agriculture. And then life experience counts for everything once you start moving up. Writing skills and people skills (especially when it comes to public speaking and grant writing) are key and can sometimes trump the fact that you were an accountant or lawyer prior to becoming a professional gardener.

Doesn't, ahem, mean that you end up good at your job in a realistic sense, but hired to your level of incompetence, no doubt.

My only life-advice to interns is "don't work for non-profits unless you have a sugar-daddy/momma and you really love it". Because while the latter is nice, the former, as I'm discovering, is key to whether you really should play ball there. Cuz I sure as f*** don't belong here. And my loyalty will never pay off, it'll just be squeezed more for my time and loyalty, which will lead to horrible things, like things I won't mention here.

That really depends on the nonprofit, though. And probably the actual field. Not too many sugar daddies around the youth-service organizations I've worked for.