And I wonder, what possible catastrophe came crashing down from heaven and brought this dashing stranger to tears?

Drusilla ,'Conversations with Dead People'


Natter 69: Practically names itself.  

Off-topic discussion. Wanna talk about corsets, duct tape, or physics? This is the place. Detailed discussion of any current-season TV must be whitefonted.


§ ita § - Mar 22, 2012 6:05:00 pm PDT #27796 of 30001
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

Steph, feel free to act as if I never asked the question, but--how long between you realising that you were kinky and you acting on fulfilling that? That's such a huge step, and one many people can stick on...well, forever.


flea - Mar 22, 2012 6:11:23 pm PDT #27797 of 30001
information libertarian

Corsets have a problematic history, but they're far enough removed in terms of actually being societally mandated that it's sort of a dressup thing. I mean, nobody is socially pressured to wear a corset these days except at Buffista gatherings, right? A more resonant example might be Spanx. Some people like the feel and support. Others feel shame about their butts. A lot of people probably fall between the two. But a lot of people are buying that stuff - enough that it feels kind of mandatory at this point for clingy garments.

I personally have a lot of trouble with traditional artifacts of femininity that seem to stem from an understanding of the female human body as somehow needing to be vigorously policed (waxed/shaved/de-scented/controlled by compression garments), things that require discomfort to achieve or render the wearer incapacitated (sewn into a dress, can't breathe, can't walk) all while being deemed required by a broad swatch of society. I mean, dressing up for fun in a corset and 4-inch heels may be fun, but high heels are societally mandatory for formal occasions for women who are not Ellen Degeneres, as is the no visible leg hair rule, no visible pubic hair in bathing suits (increasingly among the Kids Today, no pubic hair at all). I don't do much of this stuff; I do some and enjoy it, and do some and resent it, and look forward to being even older than I am now so people will judge me less.

As for the more philosophical questions about can free choice exist, I think that it is very rare to find an individual completely unconstrained in her choices by the culture she lives in. We're cultural creatures; all of our choices (including my hairy legs) are shaped by our culture. In that sense, very few of them are truly free.


Steph L. - Mar 22, 2012 6:20:47 pm PDT #27798 of 30001
I look more rad than Lutheranism

how long between you realising that you were kinky and you acting on fulfilling that?

Honestly? Ever since I started to have sexual thoughts/feelings (or even proto-sexual thoughts, because I was pretty young and wasn't quite sure how the whole S-E-X thing actually worked, even though I knew a lot of people liked doing it a lot), they were wired kinky. Like, preadolescence. When I got a new Nancy Drew book, literally the first thing I would do is flip through it to see if she got captured by the bad guy and tied up. Swear to god, I did.

So...25 years, maybe? I knew it was what I liked, from a really early age. As I got older, I realized that it was something that was Not Normal. But I never really felt guilty or wrong about my predilections, which is super odd. I just...knew that's what I liked, and knew it wasn't something many people did, and knew I probably would have to accept that it wasn't something I'd ever really get to do with another person.

And then I found out people actually do it, actually get together and talk about it, and learn about it, and do it. The gap between realizing that it was something I could actually pursue, as a grown-ass adult, and actually following through was probably 10-12 years.

Thanks to the interpipe, I knew there was a group in Cincinnati, and even looked at their website, but the gap between finding that group and showing up to one of their meetings was at least 5 years.

So -- take your pick. I kind of always knew, but once I became an adult legally able to act on it, it still took until I was 33 to do anything about it.


Amy - Mar 22, 2012 6:21:31 pm PDT #27799 of 30001
Because books.

so people will judge me less

But that was my point before. What people think of you is really their business, and their problem. If you don't want to wear heels, you don't have to. If you don't want to shave your legs, you don't have to (except possibly in a professional environment where you're wearing skirts, and they might require it, or put pressure on you). You are actually free to make the choices.


Connie Neil - Mar 22, 2012 6:25:06 pm PDT #27800 of 30001
brillig

There is something freeing about being fat, because the people who think these things are important avert their eyes anyway, so they don't notice all the hair still attached to me. Of course, I consciously chose a bright fuschia swimsuit, so part of my brain is proud to look like a giant raspberry at poolside.

I suspect I let myself get so fat partially to stop being judged on my body.


§ ita § - Mar 22, 2012 6:25:36 pm PDT #27801 of 30001
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

very few of them are truly free.

At which point, I say: wear heels if you enjoy them. There's little enough enjoyment in life, don't let anyone take this away from you.

I kind of always knew, but once I became an adult legally able to act on it, it still took until I was 33 to do anything about it.

Thanks, Steph.

You are actually free to make the choices.

Yeah, I think this is lost somewhere. Sure, there's a lot of history behind a pair of heels, but I have never overtly felt pressured to do something like wear heels, and I've never felt rewarded for it, so everything that's happening on that front is on a subconscious level. Which, hey. If there are no free choices, all choices are equally free.


Atropa - Mar 22, 2012 6:27:05 pm PDT #27802 of 30001
The artist formerly associated with cupcakes.

At which point, I say: wear heels if you enjoy them. There's little enough enjoyment in life, don't let anyone take this away from you.

Exactly.


Kat - Mar 22, 2012 6:47:01 pm PDT #27803 of 30001
"I keep to a strict diet of ill-advised enthusiasm and heartfelt regret." Leigh Bardugo

A more resonant example might be Spanx. Some people like the feel and support. Others feel shame about their butts. A lot of people probably fall between the two. But a lot of people are buying that stuff - enough that it feels kind of mandatory at this point for clingy garments.

I think this is a good example, but I also think you missed my demographic -- I wear spanx because it stops my thighs from rubbing together and then I don't have to wear tights all of the time.


Ginger - Mar 22, 2012 6:48:27 pm PDT #27804 of 30001
"It didn't taste good. It tasted soooo horrible. It tasted like....a vodka martini." - Matilda

Heels are one of my reasons for freelancing. They are agony on my feet and they were mandatory where I worked. I had supervisors who had always worked in the office who thought I should be wearing heels and skirts in power plants. That's impossible if you believe that writing about something means more than interviewing people in offices. Part of that comes from being in very male environments. All the non-clerical women at my last job could have fit in an elevator. The people who made decisions were old-school males who thought professional dress for women was skirts, jackets, heels and hose. It's different now at those companies, but that's really the way it was.


DavidS - Mar 22, 2012 6:57:18 pm PDT #27805 of 30001
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."

Also I think you're allowed to be a Hooters Girl now, but only if you have a BA in semiotics from Brown.

I actually met a woman who had a BA in semiotics from Brown who had worked as a stripper. But she gave it up to do voiceovers and hand modeling.