I feel as womanly as a 43 year old in torn sweat pants and a t-shirt, with no make up or jewelry, as I do all gussied up for a fancy party.

I guess my dealie is that I don't know what "womanly" (independent of frilly stuff, as you said) or "masculine" or even "neutral" is supposed to feel like. Seriously. Gender is a hard thing for me.

I know what society says "womanly" and "masculine" should be. But those are often restrictive stereotypes that help no one.

Let me be clear: my inability to get a handle on what being a woman should "feel like" is all on me. I'm not grousing at people who do feel like whatever their gender is. I'd rather be able to say, yes, I feel like a woman because of A, B, and C. But I can't, because I don't know what that is, or why how I feel makes me a woman rather than a man.

Kathoey sounds much like a berdache in the Plains Indian tradition. There's a lot about gender roles that is more culturally proscribed than actually psychologically "universal".

I guess my dealie is that I don't know what "womanly" (independent of frilly stuff, as you said) or "masculine" or even "neutral" is supposed to feel like. Seriously. Gender is a hard thing for me.

I am completely with you, Steph. I was sitting here trying to figure out what would be different about my consciousness that would make me feel like I should have been male. Or even what is particularly gender-specific about my consciousness. But, not being able to get outside of myself, or make my consciousness feel like anything other than what it is, I have given up. For now.

Mainly because I have to go take a shower and meet friends for lunch. And now I have a fun new topic for discussion. I will report back with any interesting conclusions.

There's a lot about gender roles that is more culturally proscribed than actually psychologically "universal".

I'd say it's entirely a social construct. At least as far as the signifiers go.

It's probably useful to make a distinction about how people feel about the plumbing they were born with, separate from how they want to present it based on the complex web of socially constructed gender roles.

Here's one way to break it down:

Your relation to your body: Cis or trans or some other variation.

Your relation to your culture: How you want to present your gender as masculine or feminine or androgynous or whatever.

Your sexual interest in other people: het, homosexual, bi, asexual, other.

I'm officially not thinking about kathoey again until I resume marking papers. Which my sister thinks I'm doing right now.

I am as one with Steph on the feeling female thing. I assume what I feel is female because I am female, but how would I know if I were wrong? What would not having breasts possibly fix? I don't get what gender feels like, or how it can be tied up in the physical sexual markers I exhibit.

It's all just what I am.

Unlike Hil, I have never wanted to be the opposite gender, because being this one makes it far more societally acceptable to display a wide range of behaviours. Being male would make wearing a skirt hard, but being female and a computer programmer or comic collector is increasingly no biggie.

It's probably useful to make a distinction about how people feel about the plumbing they were born with, separate from how they want to present it based on the complex web of socially constructed gender roles.

Yes, trans-ness does obviously encompass one's genitals. That said, a lot of FtM transsexuals don't get bottom surgery, ever, because it's really not that effective. One of our best friends is a FtM dude (who I was shocked to find out is trans*, because in every outward physical marker, he's all male -- there's no androgyny that sometimes happens that causes people to whisper about "Is he really a he?") who is on hormone therapy and had top surgery, but has no intention to build a penis, because it ain't that effective. MtF bottom surgery is apparently a lot more effective.

Anyway, I didn't mean to gloss over the issue of one's genitals in discussing trans-ness. It's part and parcel of being trans*, definitely.

But I don't think people are trans* JUST because they have the wrong plumbing. The complex web of socially constructed gender roles has a huge part to play, too.

And I really have to mention here that I feel like a jackass even talking about this. I'm not trans*, I have no idea what it's like to feel like I'm in the wrong body, and just because I have close friends who are trans* doesn't really mean I have any authority to talk about it.

Unlike Hil, I have never wanted to be the opposite gender, because being this one makes it far more societally acceptable to display a wide range of behaviours. Being male would make wearing a skirt hard, but being female and a computer programmer or comic collector is increasingly no biggie.

When I was in high school, I saw the geeky boys playing Magic: the Gathering, and I thought it looked like fun and wanted to learn how to play, but none of them would teach me, because it was a boy thing. Nowadays, I'd just get on the internet and learn myself and find people to play with, but then, I could just scowl.

Why trans* and not just trans?

And I really have to mention here that I feel like a jackass even talking about this.

I don't know why. You've got a crossdressing boyfriend and you move in circles where there's a lot of variety on that spectrum. Of course it's something you'd think about.