Well, kathoey is also regarded as a third gender. So if you don't *do* anything to change, you just identify yourself as such, is it kind of like an announcement? Have you trans-ed anything?

Heh. That's definitely not how I feel. Or that horrible song that's still on the radio about feeling like a woman and short skirts and whoa-ho-ho or whatever the fuck she sings (I don't actually even know who sings it, nor do I care).

The Shania Twain song?

So if you don't *do* anything to change, you just identify yourself as such, is it kind of like an announcement? Have you trans-ed anything?

Well, okay. Gender is more than a superficial thing, considering I just said that I don't at all identify with how women are apparently (according to popular music) supposed to feel/be/look. But I'm not a dude.

So in that sense, yeah, even if you don't *do* anything to change, if it's how you identify, if you feel your gender is not what you were born as, then you're trans*. (I'm fuzzy on kathoey, so I don't really want to try to address that.)

But the Thai kathoey individuals -- *do* they change how they dress/present? I looked at wikipedia, and it seemed like they do. (Not that the simple act of changing how you dress is the sole determinant of what makes a person trans*.)

The Shania Twain song?

No clue, still don't care.

t edit I didn't really mean that to be snotty towards you, billytea. But I don't have any clue if it's Shania Twain or someone else. And I really don't care. It's such an execrable song.

Short skirts and frilly shit and drooling over dresses made of lace -- uh, no.

I can't see Katherine Hepburn fitting there, either. I feel like a woman--or at least, I don't feel particularly masculine or neutral. But aside from situations where I'm dressing up for an occasion, the things that are marketed at me as womanly signifiers--makeup, jewelry, lacy stuff, lingerie, shoes with no notable arch support--don't really affect how gendered I feel. Those are all things I associate with presenting as a socially approved woman in specific situations (parties, events, etc.), rather than being womanly per se. And a fair bit of that seems like an attempt to seem like a woman of a very specific type (red lips to indicate sexuality, impractical clothes to suggest I'm in a socioeconomic bracket where I won't have to walk far in challenging weather, foundation to smooth my skin and suggest that I'm still of breeding age). Girly, rather than womanly.

I feel as womanly as a 43 year old in torn sweat pants and a t-shirt, with no make up or jewelry, as I do all gussied up for a fancy party. I don't feel particularly "girly." But I'm ok with that. Womanly's more comfortable and considerably less expensive.

When I was a teenager, my mom brought me to a psychiatrist who had me fill out this really long form with all sorts of questions about my mood and attitude and all sorts of things. One of them was "Do you ever wish you were the opposite gender?" and I answered yes. When the psychiatrist asked me why I answered yes, I said something like, "Because nobody ever tells boys to smile, and boys don't have to be happy all the time." I guess that answer reassured the psychiatrist that, whatever my problem was, it wasn't gender identity, since he never asked about it again.

I tried to explain to my mother a little while ago why I don't usually wear jewelry. The best I could come up with was, "When I'm getting dressed in the morning, I put on clothes and I do my hair, and I feel like I'm dressed. It doesn't occur to me to put anything else on."

I feel as womanly as a 43 year old in torn sweat pants and a t-shirt, with no make up or jewelry, as I do all gussied up for a fancy party.

I guess my dealie is that I don't know what "womanly" (independent of frilly stuff, as you said) or "masculine" or even "neutral" is supposed to feel like. Seriously. Gender is a hard thing for me.

I know what society says "womanly" and "masculine" should be. But those are often restrictive stereotypes that help no one.

Let me be clear: my inability to get a handle on what being a woman should "feel like" is all on me. I'm not grousing at people who do feel like whatever their gender is. I'd rather be able to say, yes, I feel like a woman because of A, B, and C. But I can't, because I don't know what that is, or why how I feel makes me a woman rather than a man.

Kathoey sounds much like a berdache in the Plains Indian tradition. There's a lot about gender roles that is more culturally proscribed than actually psychologically "universal".

I guess my dealie is that I don't know what "womanly" (independent of frilly stuff, as you said) or "masculine" or even "neutral" is supposed to feel like. Seriously. Gender is a hard thing for me.

I am completely with you, Steph. I was sitting here trying to figure out what would be different about my consciousness that would make me feel like I should have been male. Or even what is particularly gender-specific about my consciousness. But, not being able to get outside of myself, or make my consciousness feel like anything other than what it is, I have given up. For now.

Mainly because I have to go take a shower and meet friends for lunch. And now I have a fun new topic for discussion. I will report back with any interesting conclusions.