I am losing all grip on what gender its our what having it assigned or changed means. One of the Thai prettyboys had no surgeries or hormone treatment. They identified as kathoey, though. Are they changing anything?

Reading the wikipedia page on kathoey has thoroughly confused me. Conflation with gay, acceptance of a third gender, use of female pronouns...I don't even know.

One of the Thai prettyboys had no surgeries or hormone treatment. They identified as kathoey, though. Are they changing anything?

Well, it sounds like kathoey is marginally different from the American (Western?) concept of trans*. That said, people who are transgender (in the American [non-Thai kathoey] sense) don't have to have surgery or hormone treatment to be transgender. All that's really "required" is that the person live and present as the gender that he/she was NOT born as.

So, clothes, makeup, other physical alterations (like binding breasts, using fake boobs, etc.) -- and living and presenting as a different gender.

It sounds like Thai kathoey individuals are slightly different -- it sounds like they still identify as male, but also trans*, which is confusing.

Trans* stuff throws me, honestly, because I don't know what it feels like to be a woman. Because I'm just me. I don't "feel like a woman"; I just feel like me. And some people say, well duh, that's because you're cisgender. But my point is, I don't know what feeling like a woman is supposed to feel like. But I know I don't have any desire to be anything other than what I am.

I don't know what feeling like a woman is supposed to feel like.

[link]

Heh. That's definitely not how I feel. Or that horrible song that's still on the radio about feeling like a woman and short skirts and whoa-ho-ho or whatever the fuck she sings (I don't actually even know who sings it, nor do I care).

And that's my point. I don't really conform to those ideas of what a woman should feel like, at least as embodied in song. Short skirts and frilly shit and drooling over dresses made of lace -- uh, no.

But I'm not a man. Confusing. (Well, not really. I mean, I'm not confused about what I *am*, but about what I apparently am supposed to be espousing and living.)

Well, kathoey is also regarded as a third gender. So if you don't *do* anything to change, you just identify yourself as such, is it kind of like an announcement? Have you trans-ed anything?

Heh. That's definitely not how I feel. Or that horrible song that's still on the radio about feeling like a woman and short skirts and whoa-ho-ho or whatever the fuck she sings (I don't actually even know who sings it, nor do I care).

The Shania Twain song?

So if you don't *do* anything to change, you just identify yourself as such, is it kind of like an announcement? Have you trans-ed anything?

Well, okay. Gender is more than a superficial thing, considering I just said that I don't at all identify with how women are apparently (according to popular music) supposed to feel/be/look. But I'm not a dude.

So in that sense, yeah, even if you don't *do* anything to change, if it's how you identify, if you feel your gender is not what you were born as, then you're trans*. (I'm fuzzy on kathoey, so I don't really want to try to address that.)

But the Thai kathoey individuals -- *do* they change how they dress/present? I looked at wikipedia, and it seemed like they do. (Not that the simple act of changing how you dress is the sole determinant of what makes a person trans*.)

The Shania Twain song?

No clue, still don't care.

t edit I didn't really mean that to be snotty towards you, billytea. But I don't have any clue if it's Shania Twain or someone else. And I really don't care. It's such an execrable song.

Short skirts and frilly shit and drooling over dresses made of lace -- uh, no.

I can't see Katherine Hepburn fitting there, either. I feel like a woman--or at least, I don't feel particularly masculine or neutral. But aside from situations where I'm dressing up for an occasion, the things that are marketed at me as womanly signifiers--makeup, jewelry, lacy stuff, lingerie, shoes with no notable arch support--don't really affect how gendered I feel. Those are all things I associate with presenting as a socially approved woman in specific situations (parties, events, etc.), rather than being womanly per se. And a fair bit of that seems like an attempt to seem like a woman of a very specific type (red lips to indicate sexuality, impractical clothes to suggest I'm in a socioeconomic bracket where I won't have to walk far in challenging weather, foundation to smooth my skin and suggest that I'm still of breeding age). Girly, rather than womanly.

I feel as womanly as a 43 year old in torn sweat pants and a t-shirt, with no make up or jewelry, as I do all gussied up for a fancy party. I don't feel particularly "girly." But I'm ok with that. Womanly's more comfortable and considerably less expensive.

When I was a teenager, my mom brought me to a psychiatrist who had me fill out this really long form with all sorts of questions about my mood and attitude and all sorts of things. One of them was "Do you ever wish you were the opposite gender?" and I answered yes. When the psychiatrist asked me why I answered yes, I said something like, "Because nobody ever tells boys to smile, and boys don't have to be happy all the time." I guess that answer reassured the psychiatrist that, whatever my problem was, it wasn't gender identity, since he never asked about it again.