Honestly, you meet the most appalling sort of people....

Giles ,'Chosen'


Spike's Bitches 46: Don't I get a cookie?  

[NAFDA] Spike-centric discussion. Lusty, lewd (only occasionally crude), risqué (and frisqué), bawdy (Oh, lawdy!), flirty ('cuz we're purty), raunchy talk inside. Caveat lector.


Burrell - May 16, 2011 9:09:36 am PDT #21448 of 30000
Why did Darth Vader cross the road? To get to the Dark Side!

There are plenty of times you don't know a gender, and you'd be being either inaccurate or rude by picking one.

While I am sure there are exceptions, any time when you don't know an actual gender, you aren't talking about an actual person but a kind of general 'one' (as in 'the reader' or 'the patient'), in which case you can just make your subject plural ('readers' or 'patients') and be politically and grammatically correct at the same time.


§ ita § - May 16, 2011 9:15:17 am PDT #21449 of 30000
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

Wait. I really think the second half of your sentence disproves the first half. If they're implying figurative-ness, then they *are* using "literal" to mean "figurative."

No. What I mean is that you can't misuse literal in that way without implying figurative. But there are lots of words you can use that imply figurative that aren't equivalent to it. Their primary meaning is something else. I posit that the misuse of literal is one of those.

be politically and grammatically correct at the same time

So you're saying it's grammatically incorrect too? I've read positions that go both ways. If I don't know the gender of the doctor, are you telling me to reframe the sentence so that I don't need pronouns because English has nothing to offer me? Do you support, then, the introduction of zie and hir and all those, or do you just figure we should say it some other way?


Steph L. - May 16, 2011 9:23:04 am PDT #21450 of 30000
this mess was yours / now your mess is mine

But there are lots of words you can use that imply figurative that aren't equivalent to it. Their primary meaning is something else. I posit that the misuse of literal is one of those.

I'm really confused here. The primary meaning of "literal" is not "figurative." But it's misused to mean "figurative." I thought we weren't initally agreeing but now I think we are?

Totally confused.


§ ita § - May 16, 2011 9:28:39 am PDT #21451 of 30000
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

No, what I'm saying (really badly) is that when I misuse "literally" I'm not using it as an equivalent to "figuratively".

Which is to say, when I said "it's literally hell in that raincoat" I couldn't have equivalently said "it's figuratively hell in that raincoat". It's not a one for one substitution. However, every time I misuse literally, I am indeed implying figuratively. However, I'm implying figuratively with a whole lot of words that don't actually just mean that.

If what you initially meant was that you can't misuse literally without implying its opposite as well (even though that's not the main point of the misuse), then we agree.


Burrell - May 16, 2011 9:28:39 am PDT #21452 of 30000
Why did Darth Vader cross the road? To get to the Dark Side!

If I don't know the gender of the doctor, are you telling me to reframe the sentence so that I don't need pronouns because English has nothing to offer me?

Or assign him a gender at random and be done with it.

I can assure you that 98.9% of my students are not experiencing the need you express here of precisely and exactly defining the parameters of their knowledge. They are just trying to get the damn paper finished by midnight.


§ ita § - May 16, 2011 9:29:19 am PDT #21453 of 30000
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

Or assign him a gender at random and be done with it.

Yeowch. I hate this.


Ginger - May 16, 2011 9:29:25 am PDT #21454 of 30000
"It didn't taste good. It tasted soooo horrible. It tasted like....a vodka martini." - Matilda

When someone says, "She literally exploded with rage," I imagine guts dripping from the ceiling. Couldn't we come up with an intensifier that isn't so hard on my imagination?

Almost any general statement can be made plural, and the occasional "his or her" isn't going to kill anyone. At least not literally.


amyth - May 16, 2011 9:35:04 am PDT #21455 of 30000
And none of us deserving the cruelty or the grace -- Leonard Cohen

In the absence of knowing someone's pronoun of choice (zie, hir, or something else) I would think that many transgendered and genderqueer people would prefer a gender neutral (though incorrectly plural) "they" to making assumptions about their gender, based on appearances, or to gender binarism in general.


Burrell - May 16, 2011 9:37:43 am PDT #21456 of 30000
Why did Darth Vader cross the road? To get to the Dark Side!

In the absence of knowing someone's pronoun of choice (zie, hir, or something else) I would think that many transgendered and genderqueer people would prefer a gender neutral (though incorrectly plural) "they" to making assumptions about their gender, based on appearances, or to gender binarism in general.

This is what I mean about just using a plural subject. Works beautifully.


Seska (the Watcher-in-Training) - May 16, 2011 9:41:01 am PDT #21457 of 30000
"We're all stories, in the end. Just make it a good one, eh?"

Ah, punctuation. I follow my universities' style guides, so as to write papers that don't get thrown in the bin by my professors. All (four of) the universities I've attended have used style guides that put the punctuation outside of the quotation marks. I wasn't taught this at school, though, so if it's not academic writing, I'm less concerned. Old habits die hard, nonetheless. I'm not a prescriptivist, as I'm a bit of a sociolinguist, but I fully accept the need for register, writing for a purpose, and meeting the requirements of a demanding readership.

It may have been a bit too soon for Alton Towers, although it was nice for a couple of hours. I huuuuurt. The Girl just crawled into bed next to me, clutching a bottle of water and demanding death. I put Eddie Izzard on for her. "Cake or death?"

Wedding pics, anyone? The first official batch came in (no fewer than *four* of our friends are professional photographers, so there are more to come - we are very lucky). TG's the slightly shorter one with the darker hair. [link]

ETA: OK, none of my direct links is working. That's annoying. I'll upload a few to flickr tomorrow. The site link's there, at least!