Do you think it's ODD, or is it that the parents need to stop negotiating and set and enforce consequences for boundaries?

ODD I have a little familiarity with, but that's definitely something that needs to be worked out through therapy.

From the little you shared, it sounds like they have ceded control to the child: no needs to mean no, and sometimes negotiation is not the way to go with children. So if they are trying to gain lost ground with a headstrong child who is used to displaying acting out behaviors until they give in, then they need to accept that things will get worse until they get better.

But a kid with ODD will have rage issues with any show of authority (I'm not up on the theories behind this) and it can be incredibly exhausting and difficult to treat. It's often exacerbated by something like ADHD.

I don't know. But it sounds like they are trying to reason with a child, and that CAN be good -- but sometimes no is going to be NO and they need to mark that line in the sand and stick with it. Or else, kids are smart. She will play them if they don't say firm and follow-through.

Is she their first/only child? If not, and the other kid(s) don't exhibit this behaviour it's more likely to be medical.

If she is, I'd guess they're in for a combination of medical and behavioral therapy. One of my good friends adopted a girl from Russia who has been an evil demonchild her whole life (she's 6). She's actually really smart and can be a good kid, but she's dealing with a combination of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, PTSD, and early childhood development that taught her only the most violent survive.

Her parents aren't authoritarian by nature, so they've had to be counseled that sometimes the only way to teach empathy and manners is by strict rules and zero tolerance.

In short, the whole family's had to be re-trained. But it's working.

Do they not punish or give her timeouts? Are they just afraid of her? Because they need to be the boss, unless this kid is just an evil seed.

I looked carefully for pathology but was swayed from that by two factors...she doesn't exhibit the behavior at school and despite many assertions that she hated me and was not my friend, etc. we were able to have a perfectly lucid conversation at the very end of the session. (after they'd put her clothes back on...she spent a good half hour without a stitch.)

Erin, thanks for the reminder about ODD. Some of the management tools for that might be helpful here.

Her parents aren't authoritarian by nature, so they've had to be counseled that sometimes the only way to teach empathy and manners is by strict rules and zero tolerance.

In short, the whole family's had to be re-trained. But it's working.

I really think this is the issue. The whole family needs to be retrained. They have a younger daughter who does not exhibit this behavior...yet. My concern is that the soft, negotiating approach is not going to succeed any better with another child.

When I asked what breakfast was like (looking for the negotiating behavior) it went from "Oh no, she only gets 3 or 4 choices" to, 'well, the truth is, there is an infinite number of options.'

At this point, I had to quite earnestly say, "I think you are driving your child crazy." I can't imagine that a 4 year old has the capacity to run her own life.

We talked about how she needs to be able to sooth herself, but that the only way she can do that it so bump up against unmovable walls. They nodded, but did not buy in.

Also? Repeating the phrase "We do not do/say that _____" over and over to a child when is currently doing/saying it, seems a bit crazy making to me.

Daisy, I'll ask about the disappointment issue, but this one doesn't seem to be in touch with her parents' feelings at all. They are clearly minions at this point and I shudder think what sort of responses she might get from people outside the family with that behavior.

The fact that she did not (visibly anyway) wear me down seemed a total revelation to the parents.

The average 4 year old is too young for a superego - disappointment is not a big disciplinary tool for most.

I think this is a parental authority/boundary problem. I am by no means a Parents Are Authoritative Gods sort of person, but small children need rules and structure and DO NOT need to be given control of too much at age 4. Even 3-4 choices can be overwhelming to small children.

The average 4 year old is too young for a superego - disappointment is not a big disciplinary tool for most.

I think this is a parental authority/boundary problem. I am by no means a Parents Are Authoritative Gods sort of person, but small children need rules and structure and DO NOT need to be given control of too much at age 4. Even 3-4 choices can be overwhelming to small children.

Thank you for the developmental confirmation, flea. I thought this was the case, but seeing so MANY parents negotiating made me wonder if I was off base.

Now, the challenge is creating behaviors that the parents can/will do to turn the boat around. And the MAD coping skills they will need to navigate the backlash.

Just teach the parents that they need to be the Alpha dogs. It's actually not that different!

Yep. There are lots and lots of similarities.

Grabbing your kid by the scruff of the neck and shaking it is frowned upon, however. Smacking its nose with a paw is also ill-advised.

Though I'd love to see the look on some of the hooligans at the grocery store if I tried . . .

Hey, guess what has four thumbs and a wedding anniversary? This couple! (One of the anniversaries, anyway. We have more of a wedding week than a wedding day. This day's the culmination, though.) We had anniversary cake for breakfast. On Saturday we're doing dinner and a movie (The King's Speech). This'll be the first movie we've seen in a cinema since, IIRC, Harry Potter. HP6, to be precise. And why can we indulge in such extravagance? Because her parents will be looking after Ryan, is why. Dinner will be at a tapas bar. The last time we went out to dinner on our own was also over a year ago, I think.

I spent yesterday working from home. Soundtrack to my productivity included Danger Days ("Planetary (GO!)" is perhaps not the most conducive music for productivity, as I still feel the need to stop whatever I'm doing and bounce around to it when it cranks up), Mika, and Dave Graney and the Coral Snakes. (For those unfamiliar with the latter, here's one of their more mellow efforts, "Night Of The Wolverine": [link] ).

Just as well, because Wallybee's work made her stay back late, and I was able to pick up the little boy. (He still does childcare once a week, for numerous reasons: to allow me to work from home, to give her parents a break, to help our only child get some practice in socialising with others his own age.) This is the perfect way to end a workday.

In the evening, I introduced Wallybee to Mad About You. (Borrowed it from the library, along with The Dish and Father Ted.) As 90s sitcoms go, I like this one, as it features a couple that actually behaves like adults a lot of the time, instead of the guy being an irresponsible child and the woman his warden. Get this: episode two, they catch up with an old crush of Paul's, he makes a fool of himself. Said crush: Lisa Cuddy! I did not recognise her, at all, until she started talking.

Anyway, the point is that it's our anniversary week, and it's been going very well. So that's nice.