I'm done with B. Please wish me some strength to not throw myself at him when I am in his presence next month. He didn't do anything wrong... I'm just cutting myself off for my own good.

Vortex is on speed dial, and I'm on "Late night phone calls aren't so late on the west coast" dial! And yay for liking your therapist.

Aimee, I think everything you say makes sense. It definitely sounds like a change to a more structured environment might help. Lord knows the few times in elementary school I was supposed to be working at my own pace, I'd do like, three things quick, slack off forever, and then do whatever the minimum to catch up was (all procrastinatey and not done well). And my arithmetic skills were never speedy, so I was shocked in 6th grade when I was one of only a few kids who tested into the super-advanced-take-algebra-early group. Arithmetic speed is overrated. Would any place she goes have the option of working ahead/above grade level? So that if you did hold her back, she could get extra where she's weak and so on? Cause that might really be a good plan. Especially if you can't manage to switch her mid-year like you want. I was one of the youngest and smallest, also, and it only rarely bothered me. But also consider the future--even if it doesn't matter now, will she be unable to get her driver's license/go to PG13 movies/drink until waaaaaay after all her friends have? (In college, there were a couple of our friends who'd skipped a grade...and couldn't drink at graduation. Which SUCKED)

My ADHD looks like this: I get overwhelmed, I shut down and don't do anything.

Yup, mine too.

And mine. As Windsparrow and others have said, I think the structure will help. I know left to my own devices my attention would be on the pictures in my head, and I'd be miles away from what I was supposed to be doing.

Bobby sounds like StY, who was in the gifted program because he tested so high, and who was incapable of focus, unless it was ultra-uber-scary-narrow focus, which trait he got from me. But he was charming and helpful and so much fun his teachers adored him. Except for the retirement-aged crone who handed out mimeoed sheets to the boys and kept the girls in story circle most of the day. She had no use for loud, dirty, icky boys. I tried to have him transfered to another class, but he cried to stay. He didn't want to disappoint her!

But for him, and for me, our ADD benefited most from a dependable structured environment. Less far to wander.

I was youngest in my class through high school--being so did me no favors, at all.

You and Joe are concerned, involved parents and Em's a lucky daughter.

My ADHD looks like this: I get overwhelmed, I shut down and don't do anything. I think that Em does the same. And the more pressure she gets, the more she shuts down. I think Tep has talked about The Boy's ADHD looking like that as well?

It does. I also know structure helps him tremendously.

Chatty!co-worker's 14-year-old son has ADHD, and his experience (which is obviously meant as anecdata, not something that's universal) is that his son is about 2 years behind his peers in terms of social development. Chatty and his wife believe that his ADHD is a large contributing factor (but not the sole one).

I honestly don't know if they think that he would be more on par with his peers if he had been held back for a year. From what Hec said above about boys, it sounds like that's a possibility, but then -- every kid is different.

I agree with everyone else who says that this age is probably much better to be held back than at an older age. But then, more structure might well do just as good.

If she's held back this year, does that mean she has to stay in the less-structured setting? Or would she be able to move to the structured setting but still be back a grade level?

I have no idea what the answer is, but I have great faith in Em and her parents. I was always the youngest, because back when things were looser, my mother talked them into taking me even though I was born after the cutoff. In my case, I was still academically ahead, but I acted out some because I was soooo bored. I stayed bored until I mastered the art of hiding my book from the teacher. When I was finally diagnosed with ADHD, I found out that avoiding boredom at all costs is actually a symptom. I would always fear that a bright girl like Em would end up bored and I'd also be afraid that being kept back would reinforce her feelings of inadequacy.

I know several parents of kindergarten and first graders who are really struggling, and it seems to me that the schools are asking way too much of 6 year olds.

Aims, Tim said that this Web site is a good source of ADHD info: [link] I haven't looked at it, so I honestly don't know if it has specific info on issues of being held back a grade. If you have time, you or Joe might want to poke around it.

Fuck. Just realized that I completely forgot to put tomato paste in the sauce. No wonder it hasn't thickened properly.

I agree with everyone else who says that this age is probably much better to be held back than at an older age. But then, more structure might well do just as good.

If she's held back this year, does that mean she has to stay in the less-structured setting? Or would she be able to move to the structured setting but still be back a grade level?

This was exactly the question I was about to ask. I actually think holding back a year is probably a good idea given her youngness combined with ADD issues, but not if she is going to be in the same classroom given the issues with the teacher and lack of structure. Whatever you decide, I do want to speak out to the benefits of being one of the older kids in the grade. I see the younger students often struggle socially even in high school. But regardless, don't stress. You and MM are great parents and will reach a good decision.

Chatty!co-worker's 14-year-old son has ADHD, and his experience (which is obviously meant as anecdata, not something that's universal) is that his son is about 2 years behind his peers in terms of social development. Chatty and his wife believe that his ADHD is a large contributing factor (but not the sole one).

One common trait among people who have ADD/ADHD is missing social cues. Part of the mental process, is that our (non-existent) filters let everything in - so we end up lost in a flood of sensory information, sometimes to the point of having it appear to shut down. It's kind of like a bed of nails - one sharp poke-y thing may kill you, but if enough sharp poke-y things come packed together like commuters in a subway, you don't feel much. (As I understand it, some aspects of what goes on in the minds of persons with autism spectrum disorders is similar - only exponentially more intense) Things like body language, facial expressions, etc. get lost in the jumble. It may shed some light on why a kid with ADD/ADHD ends up behind age cohort on emotional, behavioral, and social maturity. It's ironic, because another trait that walks right alongside, is we can also be extremely sensitive. And it is possible to deal with missing social cues by working on it deliberately.

Aimee, based on your description of Em's academics, it sounds like the only reason to hold her back is to allow for social/emotional growth. Her academics sound about on par for a 1st grader to me. But in some ways social/emotional growth can be reason enough, as long as you don't think she'll be bored by the curriculum. I still worry regularly that I should have held Franny back.

I think your concerns about the lack of structure in the classroom and her teacher's age inappropriate behavior are very valid, too. I'm agree with Pix that repeating isn't a bad idea, but not if she'd be with the same teacher.

Well, I ran out of spoons yesterday and had to go home after only an hour at work (hoping my colleagues weren't judging me). I may be working too hard. Not stopping me going in today, of course. Too much to do. At least I'm still enjoying it!

One common trait among people who have ADD/ADHD is missing social cues. Part of the mental process, is that our (non-existent) filters let everything in - so we end up lost in a flood of sensory information, sometimes to the point of having it appear to shut down. It's kind of like a bed of nails - one sharp poke-y thing may kill you, but if enough sharp poke-y things come packed together like commuters in a subway, you don't feel much. (As I understand it, some aspects of what goes on in the minds of persons with autism spectrum disorders is similar - only exponentially more intense)

Yep, can completely relate to that. And to people's experiences shared here about early school experiences when you're a bit different. I remember a teacher who labelled me as stupid, and picked on me because I couldn't always answer questions, but it was a vicious cycle - I got intensely stressed because I knew she wanted answers to questions, and as a result I was too distracted to listen properly. It sounds like you're making really sensible decisions on moving her, Aims. Like Hil, I've had trouble all my life with unstructured time/flexible deadlines - and Hil has a PhD and I'm working towards one. Aims, wishing you good decisions with regards to Em's situation, and wishing her the best outcome where she can learn most effectively.

sj, ongoing thoughts for your friend L and her family.

Zen, I'm glad you weren't in an emergency situation, and also that one of the firemen was hot.

DJ, I'm sorry about your cousin. But that sounds like a great send-off.

Wedding planning with The Girl is so entertaining. There's uncle and aunt that we don't like but were talked into inviting by my grandmother. The Girl just forwarded me an e-mail from them, confirming their attendance. The forward just said "Bum."