I've probably quoted this before, but when Carl Sagan died, a reporter asked his wife about Sagan's atheism. The reporter said, "But didn't he want to believe?" Her reply: "No. He wanted to know." I have seen religious faith sustain people through troubled times and inspire people to great things. I just happen to be the sort of person who needs to know.

I do get irritated with people who ascribe a medical cure, for example, entirely to god, without any acknowledgment of the researchers and medical personnel who did the hard lifting. I have pretty strong feelings about abundance theology. I never think less of people for believing in god; I do think less of people for believing in creationism.

There has to be more to it than that. Otherwise, just me reading a prayer out loud would be praying.

Hmm. But whatever's in his head at the time, there's a why to it that there isn't for you. If I'm reading a prayer out loud, it'll be for some purpose other than religious. If this person is in a religious house, reading a prayer in accordance with the expectations or demands or whatever of the religion, I think you can assume there is a religious purpose behind it.

So I don't think the magical thinking necessarily has to attach to the actual thought moving through your brain at that instance, though obviously sometimes it does.

I also think that in common parlance we're supposed to accept that about magic. Not religion. To the outsider the practice or beliefs might look equivalent, but I think each term is accorded different weight and respect.

"Supposed to." The terms, and the specific types of though are absolutely accorded different weight and respect. But why? The sincerity of the belivers is enough to justify treating them with a certain amount of respect, but why are the ideas themselves sacrosanct? Um, to use a word.

I think there needs to be some sort of intent behind the words, but the intent won't always be the same from pray-er to pray-er. If I were to actually pray with the Lord's prayer, I might be communing with God and hoping he'll forgive some really significant trespasses, while reminding myself that I need to do the same. Another person who is worried about their job might be focusing on the daily bread portion, and so on. Everyone might be saying the same words, at the same time, but each person's intent would be different.

Doesn't that still validate the wiki definition?

I think the definitions are also probably falling apart on the emphasis different religions place on actions and beliefs.

I am pretending (because I understand they are superstitions) that I am exerting some control over the game/my team. Prayer is that, but about life. There is nothing wrong with that.

When I pray, I don't think that I'm *pretending* to exert control over my life. I can't speak for anyone else, of any faith, who prays, but I find it hard to believe that they think they're pretending.

It's nice that you think there is nothing wrong with pretending. And if that's what I were doing when I prayed, I'd think that was real nice of you.

The sincerity of the belivers is enough to justify treating them with a certain amount of respect, but why are the ideas themselves sacrosanct? Um, to use a word.

And I think the last part of this is at least a factor in the difficulty we're having nailing down definitions.

I don't think they are pretending; I know I am.

Doesn't that still validate the wiki definition?

Oh, it's fine with the wiki definition. I was speaking more to this:

Saying the words of the prayers, I guess.

There has to be more to it than that. Otherwise, just me reading a prayer out loud would be praying.

And agreeing, I guess. At least, that's how my definition of prayer would work, which I acknowledge is not going to be the same as everyone elses definition.

I have seen religious faith sustain people through troubled times and inspire people to great things. I just happen to be the sort of person who needs to know.

Those aren't mutually exclusive.

And I think the last part of this is at least a factor in the difficulty we're having nailing down definitions.

Agreed. It's a really frustrating discussion to have, and I've frequently come to the conclusion that it's not going to be possible to find common ground or a common language.