I have seen religious faith sustain people through troubled times and inspire people to great things. I just happen to be the sort of person who needs to know.

Those aren't mutually exclusive.

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And I think the last part of this is at least a factor in the difficulty we're having nailing down definitions.

Agreed. It's a really frustrating discussion to have, and I've frequently come to the conclusion that it's not going to be possible to find common ground or a common language.

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I guess to be more precise I think people who are praying believe.

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I don't think they are pretending; I know I am.

That isn't how I read it when you said that you knew you were pretending w/the superstitions about sports, and that prayer is like that. I assumed "that" referred to pretending. What was it supposed to refer to?

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Isn't prayer simply talking to your god? So if you believe in god, your prayers are the way you to communicate with the deity. If you don't believe in god, you can pray like I do, to the stars and moons and trees and rocks and things and Crosby Stills and Nash but mostly Nash because he was the nicest and cutest.

[ETA: I mean America, 'cause they sang Horse with No Name, not CS&N.]

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The terms, and the specific types of though are absolutely accorded different weight and respect. But why?

Because otherwise they'd be synonyms? I think the word magic is hella messy, as long as it applies to both Jilli and David Copperfield. That could do with a lot of cleanup work. But I think myth is a valuable word, and used between agnostics to discuss contemporary beliefs--pretty much fine. Just as I don't expect brimstone Christians who bothered to think about my afterlife to refrain from mentioning my eternal torment in hellfire amongst themselves because I'm somewhere out here feeling sensitive. I absolutely expect believers to treat beliefs as truth. There are religious people who wrestle and quest with what it ultimately means, and there are some who would posit that they don't just believe God exists, they know. And that every day is proof of that. And there are some, I'm sure, who do both.

I also don't see any reason to elevate the term superstition to the same sort of respect accorded either myth or religion. It's not the same thing. Why should it be?

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If you don't believe in god, you can pray like I do, to the stars and moons and tres and rocks and things and Crosby Stills and Nash but mostly Nash because he was the nicest and cutest.

With what purpose?

What was it supposed to refer to?

Is like trying to exert some control, feel like there is some order to the howling, scary void that is life on this earth or the Tigers this season (or the Saints in seasons past).

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I have seen religious faith sustain people through troubled times and inspire people to great things.

Sadly, I've also seen religious faith bring my mother down through troubled times. She honestly believed until she slipped into her coma that she didn't beat her ovarian cancer because she didn't pray hard enough. She died thinking that her cancer was proof that she was a bad Christian. I went through a period of really, actively hating the sections of her religion that had encouraged that sort of thinking: Godly enough person = Long, happy life. I think that's the attitude that brings the tinge of contempt to some people's concept of magical thinking, where God is supposed to be a Holy Santa Claus who will fulfill all our dreams if we just pray hard enough. I also think that picture of the Christian God is not supported in the text. The Bible says God sees every sparrow who falls. But they still fall.

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What was it supposed to refer to?

Is like trying to exert some control

Okay, I can see how it could seem that way.

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With what purpose?

Communicating with something bigger than I am.

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